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[Dennis Vogel]

Is Grace not similar to Faith, in that, it is The Grace of Our Saviour (in the same way that it is The Faith of Jesus Christ) - both free Heavenly gifts from above granted to His Elect by Our Heavenly Father through His Beloved Son (as opposed to our own works or efforts) ?

No George. Ray has a video that clearly explains Grace: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Thank you for providing this link:

Is Grace not similar to Faith, in that, it is The Grace of Our Saviour (in the same way that it is The Faith of Jesus Christ) - both free Heavenly gifts from above granted to His Elect by Our Heavenly Father through His Beloved Son (as opposed to our own works or efforts) ?

No George. Ray has a video that clearly explains Grace: https://youtu.be/o5YCfZQ7XfU

I have listened to the audio again.

Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.

1 Corinthians 15:10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV):
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

I note this comment on You Tube:

SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR.   THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD.  IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

Warmest Regards.

George

[Dennis Vogel]

Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.

You can say God favors us with grace. But you cannot say Grace itself favors anything. Grace is a verb and not something or someone that can bestow favor.

If I'm missing something please show me the chapter and verse.

SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR.   THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD.  IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

Again, please show me chapter and verse where "GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR."

But I can find these words in the church: https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/

Proof something is a lie: "if the church teaches it, it is not true" L. Ray Smith.

[cheekie3]

Dennis -

Thank you for pointing these points out:

Grace Favours and Teaches us; and labours (or works) with us - and influences us - and being justified by His Faith in us, He is Saving us through His Grace.

You can say God favors us with grace. But you cannot say Grace itself favors anything. Grace is a verb and not something or someone that can bestow favor.

If I'm missing something please show me the chapter and verse.

SHERRY SUBLETT REGAN 1 year ago
GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR.   THERE IS NOTHING THAT WE CAN DO TO EARN OR MERIT THAT FAVOR.....GOD FAVORS US JUST BECAUSE HE CAN.....HE DOES....HE IS SOVEREIGN.....HE CAN FAVOR WHOEVER HE WILLS BECAUSE HE IS GOD.  IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

Again, please show me chapter and verse where "GRACE IS UNMERITED FAVOR."

But I can find these words in the church: https://billygraham.org/devotion/gods-unmerited-favor/

Proof something is a lie: "if the church teaches it, it is not true" L. Ray Smith.

I stand corrected on both counts.

Warmest Regards.

George

[Dave in Tenn]

There was a time I thought of "grace" as akin to some kind of "spiritual mustard" or invisible holy water...someTHING that got "smeared" or "sprinkled" on people, after which they were "saved".  Don't laugh too hard...at least I didn't think physical mustard or holy water did anything spiritually real.  Now I understand "grace" is active.

For God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His Only Begotten Son...Grace.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world...Grace.
Grace...came by/through Jesus Christ.

Maybe "gracing" is a better translation, since Theologians have muddied the meaning.  I don't know.  Like all those pesky bible-words, it's a word first.  Technically, it's a noun.  But I think of it as a "gerund", from:

 G5463
χαίρω
chairō
Thayer Definition:
1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
Part of Speech: verb

Does that moisten or "undry" the theology a little?




What a "gerund" is  (I wasn't an English Major either, but I dig words):  http://www.softschools.com/examples/grammar/gerunds_examples/95/ 

[Musterseed]

Hi Dave
You said now I understand grace is active.
Your right,,,, I read The LOF111 today.

Grace as a verb , Ray uses the word gracing also.

Spiritual mustard is good on spiritual hotdogs 😂😜😜🌭

Peace to you,,,, Pamela

[cheekie3]

Dave -

Thank you for providing this additional information:

There was a time I thought of "grace" as akin to some kind of "spiritual mustard" or invisible holy water...someTHING that got "smeared" or "sprinkled" on people, after which they were "saved".  Don't laugh too hard...at least I didn't think physical mustard or holy water did anything spiritually real.  Now I understand "grace" is active.

For God loved the world in this manner--that He gave His Only Begotten Son...Grace.
The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world...Grace.
Grace...came by/through Jesus Christ.

Maybe "gracing" is a better translation, since Theologians have muddied the meaning.  I don't know.  Like all those pesky bible-words, it's a word first.  Technically, it's a noun.  But I think of it as a "gerund", from:

 G5463
χαίρω
chairō
Thayer Definition:
1) to rejoice, be glad
2) to rejoice exceedingly
3) to be well, thrive
4) in salutations, hail!
5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
Part of Speech: verb

Does that moisten or "undry" the theology a little?




What a "gerund" is  (I wasn't an English Major either, but I dig words):  http://www.softschools.com/examples/grammar/gerunds_examples/95/

Your Love for the root meaning of words is greatly appreciated.

Warmest Regards.

George

[lareli]

Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"

From the lake of fire series #11

"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."

"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith

[Dennis Vogel]

Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"

From the lake of fire series #11

"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."

"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith

He has said that in more than one recording and in email replies. Maybe not always those exact words, but he has said it.

A quick Google search and I found these:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0

But perhaps you can point out some of the important truths the church teaches. Not what they say, but what they teach. Their doctrine.

[lareli]

Dennis where did Ray say that "if the church teaches it, it is not true"

From the lake of fire series #11

"Is it possible that the "depths of God" can co-exist alongside of the "depths of Satan" in the same church? Are not both taught in the Church? No, they are not. However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church. But, therein lies the reason why there is much confusion and contradiction among the different denominations. Error mixed with some truth can be more deceptive than error alone."

"There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the church.." L. Ray Smith

He has said that in more than one recording and in email replies. Maybe not always those exact words, but he has said it.

A quick Google search and I found these:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=551.0

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,251.0.html

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=11637.0

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php?topic=3224.0

But perhaps you can point out some of the important truths the church teaches. Not what they say, but what they teach. Their doctrine.

I dont know if I can point out truths of God that are taught in church off the top of my head.. I mean if I give it some thought I'm optimistic that I could think of some, sure. But Ray is the one who made the statement that "there are numerous truths of God taught in church" not I. However I think he was probably right. He was also right that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone.

In the quote above from the lake of fire #11 Ray not only said that there are numerous truths of God taught in the church but that "there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the church."

Perhaps a new thread would serve this topic better.

[John from Kentucky]

Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.

Not ten truths.  Not five.  Not two.  Name one truth.

Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?

It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light.  Satan is a liar and the father of the lie.  There is no truth in him.  Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.

Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people".  Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems.  Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.

[lareli]

Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.

Not ten truths.  Not five.  Not two.  Name one truth.

Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?

It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light.  Satan is a liar and the father of the lie.  There is no truth in him.  Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.

Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people".  Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems.  Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.

Hey I hear ya John. But again, it was Ray who wrote it, not me. I happen to agree with him though and I will reply a little later when I have time to give it some more thought and we'all see what comes of it.

A few questions though; was Ray correct to say that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone? Was everything the serpent said to Eve a lie? Did the angel not say good things as well as bad things to each of the seven churches in the book of revelations?

[John from Kentucky]

Yes, please name one truth that the Christian Churches (or any religion) teach.

Not ten truths.  Not five.  Not two.  Name one truth.

Can you state this one truth in a single sentence in plain English?

It cannot be done because Satan rules in all churches as an angel of light.  Satan is a liar and the father of the lie.  There is no truth in him.  Satan will not allow any truth to be taught in his church by his priests and ministers.

Jesus' message to His few, "Come out of her my people".  Do not be deceived by this great false church and associated political and economic systems.  Stand alone and apart by the Spirit of God.

Hey I hear ya John. But again, it was Ray who wrote it, not me. I happen to agree with him though and I will reply a little later when I have time to give it some more thought and we'all see what comes of it.

A few questions though; was Ray correct to say that error mixed with truth can be more deceptive than error alone? Was everything the serpent said to Eve a lie? Did the angel not say good things as well as bad things to each of the seven churches in the book of revelations?

O.K.  I will wait with bated breath to see one truth that the Christian Church teaches.  I don't know why it takes so long.  I just want to know one truth Christians teach.  One truth.  Give it your best shot.  Please provide at least two Scriptures to support their one great truth.

In your 2nd paragraph, you ask me three questions, which I will answer in order:

1)  I don't know.  I do not speak for Ray.  Regarding deception, it is God Who keeps the Truth from the Many, and God reveals Truth to His blessed Elect, the Few.

2) I do not believe the serpent or Eve are literal but symbolic.  But from the Book of Genesis, please quote a statement from the serpent that was the Truth.

3)  You ask, "Did the angel not say..."  No, an angel did not speak to the Churches.  It was Jesus Himself Who spoke to the Churches.  Those who use Scriptures, must do so in Truth and care and humility.

[lareli]

Well ok John. We'll do it your way.. I won't speak for Ray either then. I'll let his own words speak for himself and you can wrestle with that instead of with me.

From The Lake of Fire Part XI

"However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church." - L Ray Smith... not me.

Ray by his own words which he included in His lake of fire series wanted to make himself perfectly clear... that numerous truths of God are taught in the Church.

Is that plain English enough for you? Not just one truth like you've ask for, but numerous truths.

To speculate as to what truths of God Ray was referring to would be to bear false witness for no one knows the thoughts of another man. Perhaps I'll start another thread sharing my own thoughts but I don't see the point at this time. Each person can discern for themselves whether or not they agree with what Ray wrote here. It's not for me to "teach" or "lead" anyone else's discernment.

I know what I discern regarding Rays statement and it means very little to me what another man believes. To his own master will he stand or fall.

[John from Kentucky]

Well ok John. We'll do it your way.. I won't speak for Ray either then. I'll let his own words speak for himself and you can wrestle with that instead of with me.

From The Lake of Fire Part XI

"However, let me make myself perfectly clear on this matter. I am not suggesting that nothing but the depths of Satan is taught in the Christian Church. That is certainly not true. There are numerous truths of God that are taught in the Church, and there are doctrines and practices of demons that are not taught in the Church." - L Ray Smith... not me.

Ray by his own words which he included in His lake of fire series wanted to make himself perfectly clear... that numerous truths of God are taught in the Church.

Is that plain English enough for you? Not just one truth like you've ask for, but numerous truths.

To speculate as to what truths of God Ray was referring to would be to bear false witness for no one knows the thoughts of another man. Perhaps I'll start another thread sharing my own thoughts but I don't see the point at this time. Each person can discern for themselves whether or not they agree with what Ray wrote here. It's not for me to "teach" or "lead" anyone else's discernment.

I know what I discern regarding Rays statement and it means very little to me what another man believes. To his own master will he stand or fall.

It has been several days now.  Surely one spokesman for Satan's great church can name one truth they teach and back it up with at least two Scriptures.

One itsy, bitsy truth.  Just one.  Surely there are some scriptural scholars who can explain one teaching of the Christian Church.  Surely the angel of light can help out?

[lareli]

I wouldn't worry too much about what other people believe John. If you just focus on yourself you should have more than your hands full. 

[Dave in Tenn]

A new thread would be fine.  This one has run it's course from the OP.