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[Anjel Uriel]

Hey BT family. I’ve been gone for months but it’s because I’ve been on a spiritual journey. You all know that I learned The Truth recently, 1 year and 5 months ago if I’m not mistaken. Well, ever since I discovered it, God gave me a desire to one day teach however 3 things deterred me.

1. I only recently learned what I know. I believe God has revealed tons of stuff to me from what you’ve all seen of my posts and other members know from our private discussions because I don’t want to breach the no teaching rule here. However, it’s not even been 2 years so despite my understanding, I don’t believe I possess enough wisdom to teach.

2. I’m currently only 21 years old and while that might not seem important, I don’t think it will send the best image for a 21 year old to be lecturing heretics who have adult grandkids. I believe from what I’ve been shown and been told by the forum members, that I understand more things about God than most of Christendom. Yet, it has all been freely gifted from above so how can I boast of something that didn’t originate from me? I’m just a sinner who God chose before the foundation of the world to reveal Himself alongside His Son, before I did anything, so I didn’t earn it, it’s pure Grace. However, this point is more subjective and based on emotionalism.

3. I don’t think I have the character to be leading and teaching. You all know how much I have struggled with certain sins and I don’t think I can be leading people until I have victory over them. Now, I know I will never be sinless or perfect in this life. Despite that, I do think that I should have victory over my biggest stumbling blocks before I teach people how to overcome them. When I’m more mature then I’ll start teaching, however like everything, that victory over sin will not be mine but Christ’s through and in me. For apart from Him I can do nothing, as He has shown me.

Well, I’ve been working on those 3 things lately (except number 2 cause I can’t make myself age) and one of my stumbling blocks was who Christ is. I know He is The Messiah/Christ, King of Kings, The Lord, The Son of Man and The Son of God. However, that last title is what it’s been giving me trouble. Is Jesus the literal Son of God? That might seem strange but you have to remember that while Babylon says “Yes He is the literal Son of God”, they then turn around and say “By the way, He is not subject to The Father and He is also co-eternal”. That’s what stump me, how can a son not be subject to his father and also the same age? They’re not Father and Son then but twin brothers. The reason was that as someone put it “either Jesus is God and that means He is uncreated or He’s created and not God”. Well that doesn’t make sense because if He is uncreated then why is He subservient and dependent on The Father? To the point of Him saying “My Father is greater than Me” and point blank saying to The Father “You are The Only True God”. So He can’t be eternal because He also died. If He’s the Eternal God, then that means He ceased to be eternal for 3 days. He lost his Eternality. 

However, I also believe The Son is God because of statements like Hebrews where The Father says to The Son “Your throne O God”, John saying “God was The Word” and Thomas saying “My Lord and My God” and Jesus blessing him.

I basically arrived at the previous conclusion after consuming lots of Trinitarian, Binitarian, Unitarian and Arian content the following basic statement and please give me some leeway on the teaching rule for once.

Jesus is The Literal Son of God. The Firstborn of creation in both senses, order and preeminence. The Father made The Son a perfect copy of Himself by taking from Himself and fashioning it into The Son. This happened before the world or ages were made. The Son is God but not The Most High God because He still has a God and that’s The Father. The Son is God because He shares in everything The Father is because The Father gave Him all things. However, The Father is The Only True God because He is the only uncreated with no one above Him. The Father and Son are One in Spirit, The Holy Spirit. Yet, their still two distinct individuals. Paul said that The Father is The One God in 1 Corinthians 8:6 because The Father is The Supreme Being yet John can also call Jesus God because He is The Sovereign of all that has been created. And that doesn’t mean that there’s 2 Gods because they are one in spirit and at the end of the day, The Father is The One True God. In the most simple sentence: Jesus is God and our God but He isn’t The God nor a god.

I just cannot see a way in which Jesus Christ can be The Eternal God and at the same time be subject to another, be changed into a human and die, ceasing to be eternal for 3 days, be The Son of a being who has the same lifespan as He and finally, having to depend on another for everything, not only now but forever.  However, it makes more sense if The Eternal Being reproduced Himself by making an identical copy of Himself, due to coming out of Him being His literal Son and this Son being made heir of everything, including divinity and Godhood, yet because He was created, He will always be subject and faithful to His Creator. He is able to be changed and emptied Himself of His privileges, died and was resurrected back to His prior glory.

Tell me what you all think. I’m eager to read your responses

[rumpelstiltskin]

Too much reading……..but hello anyway

[Dennis Vogel]

It's good you believe you don't have enough wisdom to teach. At 21 years old you have a long ways to go.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

So don't teach unless you are asked.

Here are some videos that should answer your questions about Jesus:

https://youtu.be/p4xcPE_DZC8

https://youtu.be/6UCf3U1_Vz4

https://youtu.be/qOde-0-pLYU

https://youtu.be/wQH2TYXftK4

[arion]

Just let God work on you and don’t bother with it.  If God raises you up to teach at some point that is up to him.  To ‘try’ to help God in this or to find a way to make it work will lead you to frustration and down a rabbit hole.  I’m over 60 years old now and if I could do one thing over it would be not wasting time and effort trying (in my flesh) to help God along in what I thought he wanted me to do.

If God had given me what I was sure he wanted me to have around your age it would of brought tragedy to others and I probably would of ended up in prison.  If God place’s roadblocks in your way sometimes it’s wisdom not to try to find a way around them.

[indianabob]

Good advice Arion,
Two years ago Anjel knew only little of what he now believes and is beginning to understand.
The difference from then to now is a great deal of information and some degree of true understanding.
However, the difference from today until ten years from now will be so much greater as to not even be worth comparing.
Patience, patience and more of the same.
=
The task of a young person is to study and learn, there is time enough to become qualified to teach after a person has lived long enough to have made a life time of mistakes. We are here on this earth to make mistakes and to regret them and thereby to gain wisdom.
God gave Solomon wisdom as a miraculous gift in order that Solomon could serve God in a greater way. Please note that Solomon was also given the gift of humility which served him well for a time.

Humility teaches us that everyone around us will learn what God desires for them to learn all in God's good time. We should not presume to give our friends a head start on God's time table, that would be false pride and not helpful.

Isn't that what the world's churches do and teach? That we must join them without delay before it is too late?
With God it is never too late. 

Bob

[ralph]

James 3:1
3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

1 Peter 5:6-7
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

[Anjel Uriel]

Hi Dennis, thanks for the videos, I’ve already seen them but I’ll rewatch them to hear again what Ray said. The thing was that I know Christ existed before His human birth but I’ve wrestled to know if He is uncreated or created by The Father. I know that at just 21 I still have years ahead of me to grow and learn. However, I am happy that God saw fit to show me these things last year at the beginning of my 20s so that I can spend the rest of my life learning about Him.

It's good you believe you don't have enough wisdom to teach. At 21 years old you have a long ways to go.

1Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

So don't teach unless you are asked.

Here are some videos that should answer your questions about Jesus:

https://youtu.be/p4xcPE_DZC8

https://youtu.be/6UCf3U1_Vz4

https://youtu.be/qOde-0-pLYU

https://youtu.be/wQH2TYXftK4

[Anjel Uriel]

Hi arion, thanks for the advice, I’ll take it to heart. I actually am not trying to help God in anything, already spent the last year falling on my face continually trying that. Like I said, I have the desire to teach and spread the Truth and I truly believe it has been from God. However, that doesn’t mean He is telling me to go do it now. If Jesus Christ Himself waited until He was 30 years old to start His ministry and He was God, how much more must I be patient and wait on The Lord, me being just a man. What I’m doing right now is following God’s admonition through Paul:

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

However, I’m doing primarily for my own good. I want to know more about The God and The Lord I serve and when I learn more about Them, my peace and my love grows because it makes me trust Them more and have little bit of more faith. So I’m waiting on God’s timing and in the meantime, learning and growing stronger so I can become a better child and worship Him, yet all this is a gift, not a result of my own effort.

Just let God work on you and don’t bother with it.  If God raises you up to teach at some point that is up to him.  To ‘try’ to help God in this or to find a way to make it work will lead you to frustration and down a rabbit hole.  I’m over 60 years old now and if I could do one thing over it would be not wasting time and effort trying (in my flesh) to help God along in what I thought he wanted me to do.

If God had given me what I was sure he wanted me to have around your age it would of brought tragedy to others and I probably would of ended up in prison.  If God place’s roadblocks in your way sometimes it’s wisdom not to try to find a way around them.

[Anjel Uriel]

Hi Bob, you are so right. Two years ago I didn’t know anything. I was blind as a bat and would believe anything the church told me because I didn’t read The Scriptures myself and obviously because God decided that at the moment, it wasn’t the time to know.

It’s funny that you used the time period of 10 years because that’s actually what I originally planned, I said “I’ll wait for 10 years then I’ll start to teach” but as time passed I realized that it’s not up to me. It’s up to God to decide, not me. It could be earlier, which I doubt but don’t discard as a possibility because who am I to limit God? Or, what I think is the most probable, it could be then in a decade but when I’m in my 40s and 50s.

And it can also be that God has another plan for me and my calling is not to teach but to let His Light shine by living a life that’s honorable, pleasant to Him and in accordance with His Will and if that’s the case then I should be content and not despise that. We don’t know how God will use us to impact others. I heard a statement and I believe it’s true: “We think of God as only working in the extraordinary and while it’s true that He does that, the reality is He mostly does things in the ordinary and unseen”.

And another one was: “One day, God planted a beautiful rose in the middle of a dark and desolate forest. He would look at the flower and rejoice in what He made. The angels one day asked Him: “how do you get glory from that? Nobody sees it and it’s completely unknown. God responded: Because even if nobody sees it and no men recognize and admire it, I see it when nobody else does and it pleases Me”. 

Everyday God uses people that have what others would consider plain lives, to advance His Kingdom. So I’m gonna sit still, trust that He is God and worship my Creator. (Sorry for the sappy words)

Good advice Arion,
Two years ago Anjel knew only little of what he now believes and is beginning to understand.
The difference from then to now is a great deal of information and some degree of true understanding.
However, the difference from today until ten years from now will be so much greater as to not even be worth comparing.
Patience, patience and more of the same.
=
The task of a young person is to study and learn, there is time enough to become qualified to teach after a person has lived long enough to have made a life time of mistakes. We are here on this earth to make mistakes and to regret them and thereby to gain wisdom.
God gave Solomon wisdom as a miraculous gift in order that Solomon could serve God in a greater way. Please note that Solomon was also given the gift of humility which served him well for a time.

Humility teaches us that everyone around us will learn what God desires for them to learn all in God's good time. We should not presume to give our friends a head start on God's time table, that would be false pride and not helpful.

Isn't that what the world's churches do and teach? That we must join them without delay before it is too late?
With God it is never too late. 

Bob

[Musterseed]

Last night I listened to the audio Does All Mean All and at the very end Ray made a statement.
It’s the first time I have heard it and it makes me feel very good. I want the whole
world to know about our amazing Lord and Saviour Jesus and our Almighty Father and the
plan for humanity. It’s hard to keep it in, I yearn and long for the Day of the Lord, as we all
do. I always feel pressure to speak about Him and His plan but this statement takes that pressure
off , brings to mind, Be still and know that I am God .

Here’s the statement from Ray.

“ From DOES ALL MEAN ALL”

“ Bottom Line”

“ It is not necessary; we are not obligated; it is not incumbent upon us; we do not NEED to prove
our faith to the satisfaction of those who despise the word of God. If we know it in our heart and
minds we are not obligated to prove it to these people who despise the word of God,
we’re not obligated.
But I teach this of course for our benefit.”

Notice how he wrote “ those who despise the word of God “ twice.

This morning I am reading YOU FOOLS, YOU HYPOCRITES, YOU SNAKES as I see on my TV
fools, hypocrites and snakes loving the world with all its adoration for them, they love the worldly
pleasures , yes and they despise the word of God.

Hallelujah, we praise our Lord Jesus and worship God while still learning to agape love the fools
hypocrites and snakes of the world knowing that God will save ALL.  REJOICE IN LOVE.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL.

[octoberose]

Anjel,
  Well, I’m going to be a little different.  I would never dissuade you from proclaiming the goodness of God and what He has done.  Hardly anyone knows that Jesus died to prepare a way for all of  us to get to him .  If Jesus had not been resurrected, then None of us would be resurrected - no matter how ‘good’ and ‘religious ‘ we were.  He made the way and that is Good News and you can proclaim that.  You don’t have to teach, but when the blind man could see and the leper was healed, they went away proclaiming who healed them.  You can do that too.  And I’ll tell you something, most of us are old enough to be your grandparents, but sometimes the older men who are very wise and very knowledgeable , disagree.  And sometimes the older women ask questions they have never had answered before and ask for prayer for what we still struggle with in this life.  Paul told Timothy not to let anyone despise him because of his    youth.  When I was 21 I was in church and I didn’t know anything compared to what I know today - but I knew enough to be honest, to be truthful, to say the name of Jesus without hesitancy and to marry a man who loved Him too.  And that my young friend has made a very big difference in my life.  21 matters.  But I think it’s safe to say we all know  that this very big truth of who Jesus really is ( I haven’t even touched on that because Jesus is MAGnificent but he has a God.  God the Father does Not have a God!) will cause some people to sneer at you, to mock  you and to think you’ve just plain lost your mind.  And some of those people will be people you value or even love.  Count the cost, and  then go talk about how grateful you are to God with everyone God gives you to speak to, and the wisdom to know who to speak to with your Light and not with words. And I think the people here will be a soft place to fall when you fail, and to get you up and get you going again.  May God continue to bless you.

[indianabob]

Anjel,
  Well, I’m going to be a little different.  I would never dissuade you from proclaiming the goodness of God and what He has done.  Hardly anyone knows that Jesus died to prepare a way for all of  us to get to him .  If Jesus had not been resurrected, then None of us would be resurrected - no matter how ‘good’ and ‘religious ‘ we were.  He made the way and that is Good News and you can proclaim that.  You don’t have to teach, but when the blind man could see and the leper was healed, they went away proclaiming who healed them.  You can do that too.  And I’ll tell you something, most of us are old enough to be your grandparents, but sometimes the older men who are very wise and very knowledgeable , disagree.  And sometimes the older women ask questions they have never had answered before and ask for prayer for what we still struggle with in this life.  Paul told Timothy not to let anyone despise him because of his    youth.  When I was 21 I was in church and I didn’t know anything compared to what I know today - but I knew enough to be honest, to be truthful, to say the name of Jesus without hesitancy and to marry a man who loved Him too.  And that my young friend has made a very big difference in my life.  21 matters.  But I think it’s safe to say we all know  that this very big truth of who Jesus really is ( I haven’t even touched on that because Jesus is MAGnificent but he has a God.  God the Father does Not have a God!) will cause some people to sneer at you, to mock  you and to think you’ve just plain lost your mind.  And some of those people will be people you value or even love.  Count the cost, and  then go talk about how grateful you are to God with everyone God gives you to speak to, and the wisdom to know who to speak to with your Light and not with words. And I think the people here will be a soft place to fall when you fail, and to get you up and get you going again.  May God continue to bless you.

Octoberose,
Encouragement is the sincerest form of godly love.
Thank you for encouraging us all as you counsel Anjel.
Bob

[Porter]

How do we even know Jesus was created? Jesus was certainly “begotten”, as there is Scripture to back that up. It's very possible I've missed it, but is there Scripture somewhere that states Jesus was created?

Furthermore, what is the “qualification” to be God? Is the qualification to have existed eternally? Are we not future sons of God (like Jesus) in the making?

Ever wonder why God used Ray to share who and what Jesus is? I think Ray taught not only to “expose those who contradict”, but more so to expose the contradictions within me, and to me. I'm certain that Ray knew there were a few people like us on this forum that would love the message of the cross. Ray knew because he was looking for us, and here we are.

I want to avoid discouraging you Anjel from teaching, but how many teachers do we really need, considering the lifetime of teachings we have on the bible truths website? However, if you have some new revelation, pm me quickly. 

Teaching and letting God's light shine are not mutually exclusive. In fact, letting God's light shine is the best way to teach. Ask anyone who knew Ray, watch Ray's videos, pay close attention to the words he is saying in his papers, study Ray's demeanor and see God's light shining. If I ever thought Ray was a jerk and one of them holier than thou type of teacher, I would have never gotten to know Jesus better.  Trust me, I'm really, really good at reading faces.  However, it wasn't always so until I knew what I needed to repent of.

You'll be a teacher, Anjel, if you keep following Jesus. The how will be by example, just like Jesus taught. Be perfect, like your Father in heaven is perfect, and you'll do fine.

[Dennis Vogel]

How do we even know Jesus was created? Jesus was certainly “begotten”, as there is Scripture to back that up. It's very possible I've missed it, but is there Scripture somewhere that states Jesus was created?

Furthermore, what is the “qualification” to be God? Is the qualification to have existed eternally? Are we not future sons of God (like Jesus) in the making?

Ever wonder why God used Ray to share who and what Jesus is? I think Ray taught not only to “expose those who contradict”, but more so to expose the contradictions within me, and to me. I'm certain that Ray knew there were a few people like us on this forum that would love the message of the cross. Ray knew because he was looking for us, and here we are.

I want to avoid discouraging you Anjel from teaching, but how many teachers do we really need, considering the lifetime of teachings we have on the bible truths website? However, if you have some new revelation, pm me quickly. 

Teaching and letting God's light shine are not mutually exclusive. In fact, letting God's light shine is the best way to teach. Ask anyone who knew Ray, watch Ray's videos, pay close attention to the words he is saying in his papers, study Ray's demeanor and see God's light shining. If I ever thought Ray was a jerk and one of them holier than thou type of teacher, I would have never gotten to know Jesus better.  Trust me, I'm really, really good at reading faces.  However, it wasn't always so until I knew what I needed to repent of.

You'll be a teacher, Anjel, if you keep following Jesus. The how will be by example, just like Jesus taught. Be perfect, like your Father in heaven is perfect, and you'll do fine.

Being created or begotten means something comes into existence. So they pretty much mean the same thing in that particular sense.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; 

Joh 5:19  Jesus therefore responded and said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son is not able to do anything of himself, if he may not see the Father doing anything; for whatever things He may do, these also the Son in like manner doth; 

and

Joh 10:30  I and the Father are one.' 

[ralph]

Proverbs 8:24
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

I know the above verse is speaking of Wisdom, but we know from 1 Corinthians 1:24 that Christ is the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:24
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

In Proverbs 8:24.  "Brought forth" is the hebrew "ḥûl" :to twist, whirl, dance, writhe, fear, tremble, travail, be in anguish, be pained. 

So could we then say that it was through writhing pain, anguish and travail that God gave birth in a sense to Jesus Christ?

I believe Ray touched on this in his video 'Does God Learn". 

[Porter]

Thanks for the replies, Dennis and ralph. I know it sounds simple, and I've considered that line of thought in relation to the verses. I guess it's just one of those things I can't fully understand at this time.

Going to have another read of that paper 'does God learn'.

[Dave in Tenn]

There are at least two ways that I have not found helpful.  The first is Theology.  The second is using Bible verses--especially in an attempt to turn them into theology.  If the 12 Keys for understanding scripture ever have any application, it is absolutely on this "topic".  But this is not even the end of it.

There are two ways that I HAVE found useful. 

1.  ...in the things that have been made.  In creation.  To me, this is not simply the "study of the physical and natural world" (though this is certainly part of it).  It's in our own thinking about "creation" itself--the "creating".  What we imagine, understand, or imagine we understand about "the creating" plays a huge role in how we deal with the issue.  The further I have distanced myself from sunday school, the clearer it has become.

2.  In Christ.  If we really believe that Jesus is the express image of God (and other similar pronouncements) then follow Him.  All things were made by and for Him.  Including us.  He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the Author and finisher of our faith. 

And two things have encouraged me as I continue to grope and weigh "options" from the alleged wise, though many wouldn't find it encouraging at all.

1.  But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens (spiritually, the collective mind of all individual minds) cannot contain him?  Who am I then, that I should build him an house, save only to burn sacrifice before him?  Theologians want to build Him a "house".

2.  Jer 31:34  And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD;' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," says the LORD. "For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more."