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Author Topic: Free Will  (Read 3991 times)

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Craig

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Free Will
« on: November 07, 2006, 10:33:46 PM »

Dear Ray,

I want to start by thanking you for the effort you have put forth in a most revealing work.   It has enlightened me tremendously.   You are someone whom takes life seriously as I and we both share a common pain.  For my daughter is in a coma, and like many different pain in this life, having been in this dilemma yourself, we can both sympathize with each other with a certain connection I believe.  So I thank you deeply and want to let you know your effort have not been in vain.   Someone out there has ears to hear.  You've ask " let me know", so I am doing so.

I hope that my opening statements have set a positive stage and  I seriously mean those all these words.  I take the time to write for the soul purpose of edification and weather you respond or not is irrelevant.  I believe you to be as you present yourself to be, a man of God, who I believe He is using in a very special way.  Thus,  you should know my intentions are honest and sincere, for truly a righteous man is not easily offended.

I have read most of your papers and have visited your site and chat room.  I thought to myself before hand I must know whom this person is and those around him, with whom my mind and heart agree with so much.  For I find very little to disagree with and am suprise of how you have put your words together so sensibly.  I have been riveted to your papers in awe and only wish I had the time to have put things together as you have.   It is an honor.  It is also because I am half way thru on a book I am writing which is as controversial as it can get, understanding the truth will always go against the common grain.  I have decided to use some of your work for this book and want to inform you of my such actions.  I also am putting forth my constructive criticism on certain points of reasoning which many are questioning as I notice in many of your emails.   Please do not confuse me with the many uncalled for retorics statements from the untrained mind whom taunt you constantly.  I have nothing to gain with such fruitless attempts, because it is the Creator YHWH whom I seek to glorify.

For starter your write up on tithing is phenomenal, outstanding and to the point, thank you. I would like to say so much but I will address your article on Free Will.  Initially I did not understand your "Free Will" concept in the manner in which you presented it.   After further consideration I believe I do.  For I take it even further and realize the very computer I am using emanated from Him.  For all of creation could have come from nowhere else but from Him the source of all.  So it is fair to conclude all is of Him good, evil, the very things our dreams are made of.  But I will asked you why are people questioning your Free Will explanation Ray?  After closely examination I see the conflicting contradictions which perhaps you don't realize.  Heres the scenario you present in attempting to dissect and explain Gods sovereignty over man.  The red is you:

Seriously, if anyone can explain how someone can freely choose a course of action, [1] independent of God, or [2] bring about any course of action at a time other than preappointed by God, please drop me an email. I will now hold my breath....

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God [as you have just suggested] for God cannot be tempted with evil, NEITHER TEMPS HE ANY MAN: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn way of H-I-S O-W-N LUST, and enticed. Then when lust has conceived, it brings forth sin...." (James 1:13-15). (Absolutely true Ray)

God does NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN!!! I have stated this over and over and over and over again, and yet, I get email after email suggesting that I teach that "GOD MAKES AND FORCE MEN TO SIN." I have never taught or even though such a thing. God made man SPIRITUALLY WE AK. So weak that he cannot resist the pulls of his own carnal nature. Man volunteers to sin, God does not FORCE him to sin. And it is not a sin on God's part for making man weak, because He has also a plan to MAKE HIM SPIRITUALLY STRONG, and with God the end ALWAYS JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. In judgment, God will RIGHT EVERY WRONG. The "so-called" innocent children He had killed in wars (children are innocent Ray,but become casualty of man's own devises)

Satan and man are "accountable" for their sins, because they sinned willingly from their heart,
(see sinning is a willed choice, correct ?)
The answer lies in the HEART of mankind. God said that He would punish “the fruit of his ARROGANT HEART�


The Bible doesn't say that man doesn't have a HEART. It doesn't say that he doesn't have a MIND. It doesn't say that he cant THINK. It doesn’t say he can’t make. It doesn’t say he doesn’t have a WILL. It doesn’t  CHOICES. say he can’t carry out his will through his thoughts, choices, planning, action, and deeds. What it does say is that: MAN IS NOT A GOD WHO CAN DO THESE THINGS INDEPENDENTLY AND FREELY FROM THE INTENTIONS AND PURPOSE OF HIS CREATOR!! TH AT’S what the Bible really says! (so is man's will based on predestined choices?)

Dear Chris: You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES! (is it not God who predestined this choice?)
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, (is it not God who predestined this choice.  What causes the action, what is in man's heart or the influence?)even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our c ontrol, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... (Contradiction) BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.  (so then it is us making the choice, or God's predestination at work?)


But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! (so it is not God who has predestined this choice?)

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO.(what are you saying by voluntarily) And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.  (This shows we have a certain free will to choose from the causes presented but God did not predestined this choice, correct?)


He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME.". Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME

Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and predetermined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word

You cut off the every spiritual channels by which you could spiritually grow. 8. You establish and worship what is Scripturally known as "an idol of the heart." 9. You recreate th e God of your heart into that of a man who possesses human limitations. 10. You actually loose respect for a Saviour Who needs your personal assistance and your human contribution in order for God to save you. But yes, even all of these things listed are all according to God’s foreordained purpose( Is it not God who predestined these things to occurred at their appointed time?)

God will either cause you to accept these truths at this "appointed tim e" in your life, or He will cause you to reject these truths at this "appointed time" (man is born spiritually blinded until God opens his mind.  I've seen many use this tactic to belittle the babes in Christ.  Are we not to be teachers?  Did not the Ethiopian on the road ask to be taught the words he didn't understand?  Was not the centurion sent to one of the Apostle to be taught the word?  Are we not then to teach those seeking to understand for God is moving them, not with just mere words..)

Everyone who insists that he lives his life according to his own independent of God, free will choices, is "haughty and arrogant

even though His method may seem silly to many: "...it pleased G od by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE" (I Cor. 1:21). TIS TRUE: OUR DAYS ARE NUMBERED Continuing in Ecc. 3:2: "A time [an 'APPOINTED time'] to be born, and a time [an 'APPOINTED time] to die

You might suggest that you will commit suicide and shorten your life. How silly-how totally unscriptural. No one can commit suicide unless and until the "appointed time" that God has foreordained that you commit suicide, if indeed God has ordained such a thing for you (what happened to cause and effect and then the choice?)


IF mankind had a free will to do things that only they desired to do, at the time that only they desired to do them, then there would be billions upon billions of additions a nd deletions to God’s original plan (do we have desires of the heart or not which drives us? The pull of the flesh.)

Not only do we all tear our pants or tear our shirt at some time or another, but, there is actually a God-appointed time for these things to happen. (With all due respect, this is very outlandish)

If you can’t accept this truth and repent of your egotistical, self worth, and self superiority, thinking that you can thwart the very i ntentions of God’s Own will any time you desire, then you too will be PUNISHED for your stout and arrogant heart (we can't accept the truth because He doesn't let us and predestined all we do, yet it is our ego which makes us choose against His will.  This is contradictory)

To compare a computer with a human being is a stretch of the imagination at attempting to dissect God's sovereignty over man which our puny mind cannot comprehend.  A computer does not make choices of its own volition, man does.  Computers follow a systematic pattern of sequences controlled by on and off switches steered by the programer.  It does not make "choices" of its own.  A human does make  choices of his own volition which are voluntary logical calculated base on desires and reason.   A human is driven by his innate desires as created.  But the law of right and wrong at a human level is built in us which serves to give us that "free will", within the confine of the creation, which we ultimately make on our own for which we are then held accountable for.   Israel was admonished to choose life because she had the ability to respond on her own. The fall of man was indeed not an accident, it was a choice of the heart.  An accident is spontaneous, a cause of an action not premeditated.   A person is not predestined to have an accident and break an arm at a specific time of his or her life.  But God will use a bad thing for good for those who love Him.  He also causes things to move accordingly to His plan of salvation individually and as a whole.    Habakah raises his concern of all that took place around him but God answered " I know its looks gleam son but I will work a work that you would not believe if I told you".   He confussed the langua ges because he saw where man was going and that nothing he set out to do he would not accomplish.  He bassically stagnated their progress as a society, from advancing too fast as a creation.   We can see where he has allowed man to progress today in technology and all areas of life because the time has come for the culmination of all things.  God does not go around directing people to kill each other generally speaking, or a man to rape a 10 year old at an appointed time, but nothing is hidden from Him for He sees it all.  And yes He does govern among man, chooses leadership, puts cops in the street and does cause war as He deem necessary to fulfill his plans.  But he also prevents man from destroying himself with the technology he now as acquired.

God takes responsiblity for all things in that at the end He will see that it conclude to the desire of His heart.   God did guided the crucification of His son but did not make the young ma n walk away from Christ, at an appointed time, when he was told to sell everything he had and follow him .  Why do some volunteers to follow that path of righteousness such as you and I perhaps?  Because we choose to after hearing the truth  from our hearts. Something inside each of us in our heart makes that difference to God which He only knows for He can read the spirit of a man of whom we really are.  Nevertheless He breaks us down till all we do is grasp for breath doesn't He. What made David be a man after God's own heart?   Was a fasting that God wanted?  No.  It was a contrite heart.  And correctly some will be purged greater than others to remove their stubbornness, until they reaching rock bottom where they will find humility and choose Gods will instead.  But it will eventually be a collaboration of the human will submitting to the will of the Creator.  Man will come to a point of realization that Gods way is the bes t way to happiness.

I am motivated to write and express the above to you and hope you receive it with a grain of salt.  It is not malintented.  But I saw how so many on your chat room seem to be going to and fro and grasping at this Free Will thing.  They seem to be saying okay so what is going to happen next.  I feel a responsibility to inform you of your possible err.  But I wont burden you further.  We know in part and prophecy in part until Yahsuah's return.
We are all being made in His Image for even His name is written with our bodies.

Shalom
WHIRLWIND
                 

Dear Whirlwind:

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray
« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 01:38:31 AM by Kat »
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