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[Brett]

Hello,

In transcript of 'Repentance' in forum, I am concerning from what I understand or lack of understand about 'judge angels'. See the note of Ray's spoke with transcript with bolds are mine:

"Well let me ask you, if we are going to be judging the world one day, don’t you think we ought to be practicing?  They say, ‘practice makes perfect,’ if we are going to do something.   
We are the Lake of Fire, we will be judging man and the angels.  Don’t you think we aught to have some practice at doing that then?  Don’t you think we should be learning to judge now?
Well, we go to Matt. 7 and we read this, “judge not.”  Is that a contradiction?  “Know ye not that we shall judge the world and judge angels?”  “Judge not.”  Jesus Christ says in John 8:15, “I judge no man.”  And He is the righteous judge of the world, but “I judge no man.”

Who are angels? What Ray mean by that? I don't think he mean judge God's angels, because no scriptures mention of 'angels' fall away and follow Satan. I think he mean 'messengers' like pastors, teachers, theologians, etc. Am I right understand?

I will be appreciate your help .

Brett

[lilitalienboi16]

Hello,

In transcript of 'Repentance' in forum, I am concerning from what I understand or lack of understand about 'judge angels'. See the note of Ray's spoke with transcript with bolds are mine:

"Well let me ask you, if we are going to be judging the world one day, don’t you think we ought to be practicing?  They say, ‘practice makes perfect,’ if we are going to do something.   
We are the Lake of Fire, we will be judging man and the angels.  Don’t you think we aught to have some practice at doing that then?  Don’t you think we should be learning to judge now?
Well, we go to Matt. 7 and we read this, “judge not.”  Is that a contradiction?  “Know ye not that we shall judge the world and judge angels?”  “Judge not.”  Jesus Christ says in John 8:15, “I judge no man.”  And He is the righteous judge of the world, but “I judge no man.”

Who are angels? What Ray mean by that? I don't think he mean judge God's angels, because no scriptures mention of 'angels' fall away and follow Satan. I think he mean 'messengers' like pastors, teachers, theologians, etc. Am I right understand?

I will be appreciate your help .

Brett

Here is what ray means;

1 Corinthians 6:3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
Love,

Alex

[Brett]

Thanks Alex

I'm wondering why judge angels? You know what I mean? Are angels from heaven fallen away and follow Satan? It can't be, the Greek is angelos (I'm not sure what spell in Greek), anyway it means messengers. Those could be pastors, teachers, etc.

Yet, in CLV have many 'messengers' instead of 'angels' and I cannot tell which one is from heaven or from earth. Same as KJV 'angels' cannot tell from heaven or earth. In 1 Cor. 6:3 judge angels who from earth, not from heaven (God). And in somewhere in Hebrew ch. 1 about 'angels' (messengers) are from heaven (God). So, suppose if someone say in 1 Cor. 6:3 'angels' are from heaven, then that mean God created angels for His but they fallen away. Know what I mean?

If you don't know what to say, that's okay. Someone will if they are not sick of me .

Brett

[lilitalienboi16]

Thanks Alex

I'm wondering why judge angels? You know what I mean? Are angels from heaven fallen away and follow Satan? It can't be, the Greek is angelos (I'm not sure what spell in Greek), anyway it means messengers. Those could be pastors, teachers, etc.

Yet, in CLV have many 'messengers' instead of 'angels' and I cannot tell which one is from heaven or from earth. Same as KJV 'angels' cannot tell from heaven or earth. In 1 Cor. 6:3 judge angels who from earth, not from heaven (God). And in somewhere in Hebrew ch. 1 about 'angels' (messengers) are from heaven (God). So, suppose if someone say in 1 Cor. 6:3 'angels' are from heaven, then that mean God created angels for His but they fallen away. Know what I mean?

If you don't know what to say, that's okay. Someone will if they are not sick of me .

Brett

There are Angels that sin brett but that doesn't make them 'fallen' angels. They were just always that way, they never fell. Much like humans were never in a high position to fall from, neither are angels.

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Does this help? I mean i could be wrong but this is what i understood about angels.

[chuckt]

hi all good topic, lets look at the word "judge"

Krino 3:921,469
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kree'-no      Verb  
 
 Definition
to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose to approve, esteem, to prefer to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion to determine, resolve, decree to judge
to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others to rule, govern
to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment to contend together, of warriors and combatants
to dispute in a forensic sense
to go to law, have suit at law 



this helps me understand alot better, and yall?


inlove
chuckt

[Brett]

Thanks you for trying to explain as you can. I understand little bit both of you. But I am trying.

Umm....so, from what I understand is 'angels' or 'messengers' always from heaven/God and never from earth like pastors, ministers, etc? Am I right?

Thanks for being patient with me .

Brett

[Redbird]

Hi Brett,

Your original question is a great question.  Once I was called to jury duty and was sooo not wanting to get picked to judge anyone because of what Jesus says, that I literally prayed all day to God for them not to pick me as a juror.  Well, they didn't.  So, now, I wonder about this judging issue too.  Can you please direct me to where Ray talks about this - where you got the above quotes so I can read the rest of it.

Thanks, Lisa

[Kat]

Hi Lisa,

I had went and found that so I could read it.  It is on the Repentance transcript part 2, right at the beginning.  Here the link.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[chuckt]

hey that was a good read, thanks for posting it Kat!!

chuckt

[carol70]

Hi Brett,

Here are a few verses I found concerning angels.

Heb 1:3  He is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word. After he had provided a cleansing from sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Highest Majesty
Heb 1:4  and became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is better than theirs.
Heb 1:5  For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son. Today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
Heb 1:6  And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Heb 1:7  Now about the angels he says, "He makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire."

Heb 1:13  But to which of the angels did he ever say, "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?
Heb 1:14  All of them are spirits on a divine mission, sent to serve those who are about to inherit salvation, aren't they?

Heb 2:5  For he did not put the coming world we are talking about under the control of angels.
Heb 2:6  Instead, someone has declared somewhere, "What is man that you should remember him, or the son of man that you should care for him?
Heb 2:7  You made him a little lower than the angels, yet you crowned him with glory and honor
Heb 2:8  and put everything under his feet." Now when God put everything under him, he left nothing outside his control. However, at the present time we do not yet see everything put under him.
Heb 2:9  But we do see someone who was made a little lower than the angels. He is Jesus, who is crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might experience death for everyone.
Heb 2:10  In bringing many children to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.

So angels are spirits on a divine mission, but apparently they can sin, so they too will face judgment:

2Pe 2:4  For if God did not spare sinning angels, but thrust them down into Tartarus, and delivered them into chains of darkness, being reserved to judgment.

Hope this helps,
Carol

[skydreamers]

Hi Brett, I think I understand your confusion.  As I have thus far understood it, the word "angels" can either be taken to mean "spirit messengers"  OR "human messengers".  So the problem is trying to determine which is being referred to in which scripture?

Satan and the demons could be the "sinning angels" since Satan sins, and so logically so do the demons.

1 John 3:8
the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning.

So those who follow the workings of Satan, whether human OR spirit, are those the Lake of Fire is prepared for:

Matthew 25:41
Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...

1 Timothy 3:6
He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.


It is in the Lake of Fire (which is made up of the Elect) that the angels (human or spirit) will be judged.   It looks like messengers of Satan includes humans who are teaching the doctrines of devils:

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
14  And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15  So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.


So the question is, can demons and Satan really be referred to as true angels?  I haven't yet found a scripture that connects the two...Satan (and perhaps the demons) can disguise themselves as "angels" but that doesn't mean they are angels.   We know they are referred to as "evil spirits" and are dispatched or sent from the Lord....so I guess that could make them messengers....

1 Samuel 19:9
And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul

1 Kings 22:23
Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets

Maybe it's not super important to try and make the distinction, but it is interesting that it is a teaching of orthodox churches that Satan and his demons were once angels who sinned and so are fallen.  Perhaps they are not, nor ever have been "angels".

Hope this doesn't confuse you even more...

Peace,
Diana

[Redbird]

Thank you Kat, for the link.

Peace to you, Lisa

[gmik]

Notice date.

Ihad originally printed out the 32 pages.

Today, I printed out 32 pages!!  Wentto file them and there ws the first one!!!  Oh well!

Its all good.

[Redbird]

Well Gena,

Maybe you know a brother you can give the extra copy to.

Peace, Lisa

[Brett]

Hello,

Are some of you deaf because you cannot hear the audio of "Repentance"? Just silly joke!


Hi Carol, thank for the scriptures. But let me ask you, you said, "So angels are spirits on a divine mission, but apparently they can sin, so they too will face judgment" (bolds & underlines are mine). So are you saying that God created perfect & good angels and then later they fall away from God and follow Satan, angels are now 'bad' like angels 'can' choose sin? Is that what you said?  If so, there are no scriptures about that. God never created Satan as 'perfect' and 'good' angel befire he turned away and sin against God. No, God created Satan to be 'Satan', the bad one. As well as God created two different angels, one are 'good' and other are 'bad'. Is that make sense? Ray did write about "SATAN AND THE ANGELS DID NOT HAVE “FREE-WILL”  in "Lake of Fire Series" in The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part C
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

Yet, I am appreciate for your trying to help me .

Brett

[Brett]

Thank you, Diana

Yes, I see clear. Seem help me . Sometimes I am wondering 'messengers' are angels and humans also, but at the same time I am wondering if 'messengers' are only both  'good' messengers and other 'bad' messengers that God created them from the beginning, and never mean for humans. Because, I just read today in 1 Cor. 6:2-3:

          V.2 "Judge the world" are mankind/humans
          V.3 "Judge angels" (messengers)" are demons

You got me in the scriptures have "Satan and his angels", I guess I was overlooked . Now I can see that two group, one bad 'Satan's angels' and one good 'God's angels'. Hmmm...interesting. I don't know if 'angels' or messengers are connect to human being also. Ray's installments of Lake of Fire series did write 'messengers' but he did not say of who really messengers (angels) are from.
Thanks again, for the help, Diana!

Anyone, did you find Ray's installments (any) write about who are messengers? Probably not? If not, that is okay. I would probably say that 'messengers' are "God's angels" and "Satan's angels", and not humans like pastors, teachers, etc. Or maybe 'messengers' are  "Unsolved Mystery" .

Brett

 

[carol70]

So are you saying that God created perfect & good angels and then later they fall away from God and follow Satan, angels are now 'bad' like angels 'can' choose sin? Is that what you said? 

 
Nope, I'm not saying that at all!  It just seemed to me from the verses that they are able to sin, or rather, God created some of them for the purpose of sin.  Perhaps the mission for some of them is to deceive?  I have no idea.  I will be the first to admit I know next to nothing about angels.  I'm just trying to gain more understanding, like you.

[Brett]

So are you saying that God created perfect & good angels and then later they fall away from God and follow Satan, angels are now 'bad' like angels 'can' choose sin? Is that what you said? 

 
Nope, I'm not saying that at all!  It just seemed to me from the verses that they are able to sin, or rather, God created some of them for the purpose of sin.  Perhaps the mission for some of them is to deceive?  I have no idea.  I will be the first to admit I know next to nothing about angels.  I'm just trying to gain more understanding, like you.

I must have misunderstood you. Now I understand what you mean. Thank you for the clarify me .

Brett