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Author Topic: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...  (Read 18012 times)

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skydreamers

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Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« on: August 15, 2007, 09:37:16 PM »

Anyone ever heard this phrase?  I've read it and heard it said more than I care to remember.  Does nobody bother to check these things out before they parrot such cliches? 

I'm doing my own study on this, but I know Ray speaks or writes about it somewhere and gives the accurate numbers but I can't find it for the life of me.  I'm hoping Kat or somebody could help direct me to Ray's writings about this so I can double check with what I've found.

Thanks everyone!

Peace,
Diana
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josh

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2007, 09:47:29 PM »

Here is an excerpt from Ray's paper to John Hagee's sermon "The Seven Wonders of Hell."

"Jesus said twice as much about hell as He did heaven."

The fact, Mr. Hagee, is that the word "hell" is used in the Authorized Version of the Gospels fourteen (14) times, while the word "heaven" is used in the Gospels one hundred and fifty (150) some times. Tell me, do you men ever listen to each other on T.B.N.? Dr. Kennedy says the Scriptures speak of eternity in Heaven some 300 times and eternity in Hell only 60 times.

Both of your figures are in gross error, and they grossly contradict each other.


I look around to see if I can find anything else... maybe in the emails.

God's Peace.
Josh
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josh

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2007, 09:52:26 PM »

Ps. Installment 16 - HELL Part D has some relevant information for you search.
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skydreamers

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2007, 10:05:41 PM »

Thanks so much Josh!  That will be very helpful. 

I'm still thinking I read some place where Ray breaks down the actual numbers...eg how many instances Jesus spoke of "hell" compared to "heaven". 

In my studies I'm including references to "eternal punishment" (1) and references to "fire" that many use to say Jesus is talking about "hell".  But even if you include all of these, it is still far less than the number of times He spoke about heaven. 

I just find it so frustrating when people bring that up to supposedly prove the existence of the "Christian hell" because they've heard it so many times in sermons etc and they just believe it like it was a scriptural fact without checking it out for themselves.  >:( ???

I want to have my little study handy the next time someone tries to use that one on me! ;D

Thanks,

Peace,
Diana

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hillsbororiver

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2007, 10:49:12 PM »

Hi Diana,

In just doing a simple Esword search on "heaven" and "hell" the numbers are not even close, even so I can hear them say "He emphasized hell more just check the context!"

31 hell OT

327 heaven OT

23 hell NT

256 heaven NT

Total: 54 hell 583 heaven ........ no contest, hell outscored more than 10 to 1, then when you check the Hebrew and Greek root words we find it to be a shutout; 583 heaven,  Zero, Zip, Nada for hell!

Amen!

His Peace to you,

Joe

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skydreamers

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2007, 12:35:01 AM »

Hi Joe,

Yes you are so right...it's crazy isn't it?  How do they come up with these things anyways?

Here's what I've come up with so far in narrowing it down even more, because the work comes in listing the different scripture in which Jesus actually spoke about hell:

We have 16 times Jesus talks about "hell" in the NT.
10 of these times He is speaking of Gehenna.

 Gehenna - hell, 11
Mat_5:22, Mat_5:29-30 (2), Mat_10:28, Mat_18:9, Mat_23:15, Mat_23:33, Mar_9:43, Mar_9:45, Mar_9:47, Luke 12:5,

5 of these times he is speaking of Hades.


 Hades -hell, 5
Mat_11:23, Mat_16:18, Luk_10:15, Luk_16:23,  Rev_1:18,

Out of these 16 instances, 5 are repeats of the same instance in different gospels.  One of these times was through the vision that John received and recorded in Revelations.  That leaves 10 times that our Lord and Savior spoke of "hell" during His earthly ministry. 

Even if we were to include references to what is thought to be "hell" such as:

Mat 25:46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So now we are at 11.

And I can find 8 more instances where Jesus speaks of "everlasting fire" and being "thrown into the fire" etc.

Mat 3:10, Mat 3:12, Mat 7:19, Mat 13:40, Mat 13:42, Mat 13:50, Mat 18:8, Mat 25:41, Joh 15:6 (the rest in the other gospels are just repeats of the same instances)

So that brings us to 19.

That's all I can find so far...it seems that these would be the only verses anyone could use to say that Jesus was referring to "hell" or the "fires of hell".

Now on to the times he spoke of Heaven....(that's for tomorrow...)

Peace,
Diana   
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Kat

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2007, 01:26:03 AM »


Hi Diana,

I found this in part A of the Hell series.
Hopes this helps your study  :)

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-A.html -----------

The word "hell" is an Old English word that was used to translate several words found in the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. What words? And why did they choose to use the Old English word "hell" as a translation? We shall see that it had absolutely nothing to do with scholarship, but everything to do with forcing pagan religion into the teachings of Jesus Christ. You don’t have to take my word for it; you will be able to judge for yourself as we go through it.

Here are the words for which "hell" was inserted as a "translation" into English:

The Hebrew word sheol (31 times)

The Greek word gehenna (12 times)

The Greek word hades (10 times)

The Greek word tartarus (1 time)

That’s it.

Every time the word "hell" is found in the King James Bible it is translated from one of these four words. We find the word "hell" 31 times in the KJV Old Testament and 23 times in the KJV New Testament for a total of 54 times. Later we will look at all 54 verses containing the word "hell," plus the 31 times that sheol is translated as "grave."

--------------------------------------------------

ONCE MORE: In the Hebrew manuscripts, we find the word sheol 65 times, therefore, in our English translations we should find ONE WORD for all 65 times sheol appears. But, no, we find ONE Hebrew word translated into THREE DIFFERENT ENGLISH WORDS—"pit, grave, and hell."

And in the New Testament we have the opposite of this Hebrew fraud: We have the ONE English word "hell" translated from THREE DIFFERENT GREEK WORDS—"gehenna, hades, and Tartarus."

Then we come to the greatest New Testament fraud of all regarding "hell." One time and one time only we find the Greek word hades, translated not "hell," but "grave." Why? Why just one time, "grave?"Why? Because the translators did not want us "dumb sheep" to ever know what hades really means.

If "grave" and "hell" had very similar meanings, then their use would not be so damning, but as they are opposites in every way there is no justifiable reason for their use. And if the Greek words "hades" and "gehenna" were very similar in meaning it might be justifiable to translate them into the same one English word, but they are not; they are totally different.

At least half of the translations in the Old Testament are correct, in that sheol can be translated correctly as "grave." But in the New Testament, not even once is the English word "hell" a justifiable translation for any Greek word found in the manuscripts.
---------------------------------------------------


mercy, peace and love
Kat

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chuckt

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2007, 12:59:19 PM »

Anyone ever heard this phrase?  I've read it and heard it said more than I care to remember.  Does nobody bother to check these things out before they parrot such cliches? 

I'm doing my own study on this, but I know Ray speaks or writes about it somewhere and gives the accurate numbers but I can't find it for the life of me.  I'm hoping Kat or somebody could help direct me to Ray's writings about this so I can double check with what I've found.

Thanks everyone!

Peace,
Diana



hello and greetings.

i hear it all the time and i cant stand it!!

when ever i hear it i say prove prove it prove it, the back peddling always begins.

i personaly studied this and took two hightlight pens and counted. i was even very libral on the hell side and conservative on the "heaven side.  its just not true, i will go and find my info on this and repost it.


peace
chuckt
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DuluthGA

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2007, 07:26:58 PM »

Extraneous note:

The old adage "The Lord helps those who help themselves" is not scriptural.

Janice
« Last Edit: August 16, 2007, 08:03:46 PM by DuluthGA »
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SandyFla

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2007, 02:49:35 PM »

I actually went through the Gospels and copied/pasted every single verse where Jesus said both words, along with a count--being careful not to count those times that are repeated in other books. Then I totaled the complete number of times Jesus used "heaven" and "hell" in a discussion, counting it as one time that He actually talked about them. Both times the numbers for "heaven" are much higher than "hell."

I'd be happy to send it to anyone who'd like to pass it on to their Christian friends who spout that garbage. Post a message to me with your e-mail and I'll send it. I might miss it if you post your request in this thread.

Sandy
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ruckfogers

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2007, 03:29:36 PM »

Jesus continually spoke of the Kingdom which, I suppose, most people believe is Heaven.
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dawnnnny

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2007, 03:35:03 PM »

Maybe that's the problem with "Kingdom" and "Heaven"
I think most think, unless the word heaven is used, they don't think of it as heaven.
They want the beautiful, descriptive words on pearly gates and streets made of gold. 
When the Kingdom is so much more, but I don't ever remember hearing a sermon on the Kingdom.
Fluff Fluff Fluff in the churches, how to be a good husband, wife, giver, etc., etc.
So glad I don't feel "obligated" to be there anymore!
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ruckfogers

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2007, 04:09:46 PM »

So glad I don't feel "obligated" to be there anymore!

I don't think we are obligated but there is a benefit:

And let us not neglect our meeting together, as some people do, but encourage one another, especially now that the day of his return is drawing near. [HEB 10:25 NLT]
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dawnnnny

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2007, 04:13:02 PM »

Hi ruckfogers - I agree and that's why I'm so thankful for this forum and now have a place to fellowship!
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Harryfeat

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2007, 10:01:36 PM »

I actually went through the Gospels and copied/pasted every single verse where Jesus said both words, along with a count--being careful not to count those times that are repeated in other books. Then I totaled the complete number of times Jesus used "heaven" and "hell" in a discussion, counting it as one time that He actually talked about them. Both times the numbers for "heaven" are much higher than "hell."

I'd be happy to send it to anyone who'd like to pass it on to their Christian friends who spout that garbage. Post a message to me with your e-mail and I'll send it. I might miss it if you post your request in this thread.

Sandy

Hey Sandy,

I did sort of the same thing you did. I did a sort of the king james red letter version on e-sword and came up with the following:

The occurrence of he words heaven and hell written in red letters were as follows:
Matthew--  Hell = 10 times in 6 chapters and 9 verses
..............  Heaven = 70 times in 20 chapters and 63 verses

Mark--        Hell = 3 times in 3 verses of chapter 9
.................Heaven = 11 times in 5 chapters and 10 verses

Luke--        Hell = 3 times in 3 chapters
.................Heaven = 33 times in 13 chapters and 28 verses


Revelations 1 hell and 1 heaven each


It is very clear from these totally lopsided results are completely opposite from the statement made.

It was fun to do and took me a bit of time especially since I kept getting distracted from counting and starting rereading the sermon on the mount and some of the other gospels.

be blessed
feat

PS because of noted distractions, the counts are not guaranteed completely accurate but s/b fairly close ;D
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willieH

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2007, 12:23:14 AM »

willieH: Hi all...  :D

JESUS actually, in approximately 3.5 yrs... of ministry on earth, only (as far as Biblical notations we have available) Only spoke of this topic in any of the terms (mis)translated HELL, only on 7 occasions...

GEHENNA...

(1) Sermon on the mount: Matt 5:29-30,22 and Mark 9:43,45,47... all 6 on the SAME OCCASION reported by both Mark and Matthew...
(2) Warning the Apostles to fear: Mark 10:28 / Luke 12:5  two mentions...SAME OCCASION...
(3) Upbraiding the Pharisees:  Matt 23:15, 33 ...2 mentions ...SAME OCCASION
(4) Warning against offending little ones: Matt 18:9 ...one mention, ONE OCCASION

HADES...

(1)  Capernaum exalted to heaven, then brought down to hell (hades) Mt 11:23 / Lk 10:15 ...two mentions on SAME OCCASION
(2)  Lord says He will build His church: Mt 16:18 ...one mention, ONE OCCASION
(3)  Parable of Rich man & Lazerus:  Lk 16:23 ...one mention, ONE OCCASION

GEHENNA... 4 Occasions... 11 total mentions of this word...
HADES... 3 Occasions... 4 total mentions of this word...

Seven total occasions, and only 15 total utterances of either word... not much ATTENTION to the potential subject, especially for 3.5yrs worth of teaching...

His mentions of Heaven were over 100+ even though some were multiple mentions on single occasions... but  100+ far exceeds 15...

Peace...  ;)

...willieH  ;D

Peace...
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Dave UK

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2007, 07:18:22 AM »

Hi

I saw this exact quote myself last week on another forum, which was also discussing hell. Anyway It can't possibly be true because the prosperity teachers tell us that Jesus spoke more about money than anything else ?
I might be wrong but I believe Jesus spoke more about The Kingdom than anything else

Dave UK
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chuckt

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2007, 09:32:43 AM »

this is just a word search but it pretty much sums it up:

hell=16
death=22
fire=23
worm=3
darkness=18
judgment=26
gnashing=7

total=115 lets round it up to 120 :-*



life=68
heaven=128

total=196, lets round it down to 180 :P


yes this is just a word search yet one can see there is NO way Jesus talked more about hell
than heaven, death than life, darkness than light ....ETC.


these people who say he talked about hell more than heaven are only parroting what they have heard
and  are a fullfillment of amos:8:11

Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:


its is our job to:

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?


and so in gentleness we feed them and give them drink true bread tis Christ.....etc.



may the Lord bless you all

inlove
chuckt


« Last Edit: August 18, 2007, 09:33:46 AM by chuckt »
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Patrick

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2007, 07:30:13 PM »

How fitting.
What did I see in one of our "small town local newspapers" this week?

http://www.thedesertadvocate.com/082207/comm/calvary_corner.htm

I usually can't get past about 3 sentences from him before I move on.

And some folks have this to say when they spar with Pastor Huck.

http://www.thedesertadvocate.com/082207/comm/letters2.htm



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MovieMaker

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Re: Jesus spoke more on Hell than Heaven...
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2007, 06:56:47 AM »

You know, one of the things I have always noticed (and maybe I am off the mark?) is that when terms like "unquenchable" or "everlasting" are used to describe fire -- this only denotes that the FIRE is everlasting, not necessarily the length of stay IN the fire.
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