> General Discussions
Paradise
chrissiela:
I was reading this email:
--- Quote ---Hello Ray:
I have E-mailed you a few times over the last couple of years and you have always been gracious enough to reply.
I was telling a Christian Lady Friend of mine that when you die...you are DEAD and await judgement day and at some point will THEN go to Heaven and that you do not automatically go to Heaven when you die (Hey, am I hired?!)
She brought up the thing Christ said on the Cross. I DID read your reply to this question you sent a reader awhile ago. I must admit that if I was standing there on the Mountain while Christ was crucified and I HEARD him utter "Today You shall be with me in Paradise" the first thing that would come to my mind would NOT be a debate on where the comma should be placed...I would take Christ at his Word. Secondly, Christ DID use the word "Paradise". My questions are two-fold..... If "Paradise" does NOT mean "Heaven", than what does it mean?.....and # 2 why then DID Christ use the term "Paradise"? With most of your writings I feel you are 100% right-on....but I must admit I am "not seeing the light" on this issue. In your reply to the reader I mentioned you seem to fluff over the whole issue of "Paradise" and talk about other matters (and I agree with your logic...to the point where I irritate my men's group and they say I should stop reading your Web site! !!) . I must admit what happens to one when you die still bothers me a bit.....I want to agree with you but then again Christ clearly says NO man is good...so the ultimate judgement is that NO man passes...so once again it is left to Christ's Grace saving mankind (in which case why the delay in joining him?).
Help!
Scot
Dear Scot:
I would think that no less than 50 times over the years, I have said that I will (some time in the FUTURE) write a paper on this. This is NOT a priority with me. There are many more important subjects that I mujst write on before I do a paper on this subject. If a short 3 or 4 sentence answer is all that is needed, I would have done that already in the dozens and dozens of emails I have received on this question over the years.
It is not kosher to quote half of a verse when it has a larger context. Jesus did not begin a sentence with: "TODAY you shall be with me in paradise," did He? No, Jesus said: "Verily I say unto thee TODAY shall you be with Me in paradise." But even that is King James translating, and King James is not inerrant. Notice how the great scholar Joseph Bryant Rotherham renders this verse: "Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise." But as a footnote he suggests that "This day with me shalt...." as a possibility. So what's the solution? God tells us how to solve this Verse and every other verse of Scripture: "That no prophecy of scripture becomes self-solving" (II Pet. 1:20, Rotherham), "That no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its OWN explanation" (Concordant LNT).
We must go to other Scriptures to explain what is mean by this Scripture.
But is this what theology does? No, theologians say this this verse EXPLAINS ITSELF--"That VERY DAY the thief when with Christ TO HEAVEN." Oh really? That is not what the REST of the Bible teaches.
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
There is the mention of only two primary "gardens" in Scripture: The "tree of life" (Gen. 2:9) is found in Garden of Eden (Gen. 2:9). And what else is that Garden of Eden called? Answer: "To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the PARADISE of God" (Rev. 2:7).
[1] The "Garden of Eden." Was that garden, "heaven?" What did we find in that garden: (1) the knowledge of EVIL, (2) rebellion and SIN, (3) a flaming SWORD, (4) the pronouncement of CURSES, and (5) the lying SERPENT (Satan--Rev. 12:9).
[2] The "Garden of Gethsemane." Was that garden "heaven?" What did we find in that garden? (1) The Apostles DESERTED Jesus in this garden, (2) Judas BETRAYED Jesus in this garden, (3) an army of wicked elders, scribes and chief priest with clubs and SWORDS, (4) Jesus is carried away from this garden to be CRUCIFIED, and (5) This garden contained the TOMB in which the DEAD Jesus was placed.
Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you? I don't care if there are NO commas in Luke 23:43. Commas do not make or break the Scriptures of God. This verse does not contradict hundreds and hundreds of other Scriptures as the Church teaches it does. That day, "today," both Jesus AND the thief, DIED AND THEY WERE DEAD
This is a large subject involving the different resurrections, and the Judgments of God. It will take a sizable paper to cover it properly and I cannot do it now. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Ray said:
"DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven."
and:
"Do any of this evils in these two paradise gardens sound like "heaven" to you?"
So what of these verses:
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up TO THE THIRD HEAVEN. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/list:u]
How is paradise not "heaven" when it says here that it is the "third heaven"?
These are the three verses in the NT scriptures that mention "paradise" and when I read them I see CHRIST, who is seated IN HEAVEN at the right hand of God.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be WITH ME in paradise.
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up INTO PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of THE TREE OF LIFE, WHICH IS IN the midst of THE PARADISE OF GOD.[/list]
God planted a GARDEN God put Adam (man) in His garden (to grow):
He buried His treasure in the field (world/garden?) and the field is "ripe for harvest" and the "angels are the reapers" etc
There is good seed sewn by the Son of Man and bad seed sewn by the wicked one, the enemy, the devil.
God, the Father, is the "true" husbandman (farmer, land worker).
Christ is the VINE, we are the Branches; TREES bearing good or bad FRUIT, etc, etc, etc,
How ironic that Christ was mistaken for the "gardener" at the tomb: :D
Joh 20:15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.[/list]
Christ told the thief that he would be WITH HIM in PARADISE.
This man Paul "knew" was caught up into PARADISE. (also called the "third heaven")
The Tree of Life is in the midst of the PARADISE OF GOD.
I see Paradise as the Kingdom of Heaven (or the Kingdom of God); where Christ IS. Where the Tree of Life IS.
And truly I see CHRIST as all of these things: The Tree of LIFE, the Book of LIFE, Eternal LIFE, the BEGINNING, the END, the SON (of God), the PROMISE (of God), the PARADISE (of God), to name only a few.
We will ALL be WITH HIM in Paradise!!
What am I missing here??
I was going to ask Ray directly, but decided not to since he said many times that he will not write on this until some time in the future, having other more important things to write about now.... so until then.... thought I would ask here...
Chrissie
Daniel:
Great post Chrissie, I too have been wondering on these things, "spiritual with spiritual. Heres some other considerations I have thought on. We are Gods feild, His husbandry, His work as He works within us to both will and do His good pleasure. Garden of His delight perhaps? The Seed, His word planted in us will not return void but accomplish all that He desires and that we be perfected in His love.
Considering "paradise" in the verses you set out and being with Him in paradise we know it was not the death of the physical body needed to be "caught up" to it. To me its like our minds, these tombs needed to "be opened" by His Spirit to possibly "conceive" Gods thoughts which are "higher" then ours. So "Come up hither" is as the power or strength to "conceive" a thought of His. As Paul says, who knows that thoughts of God but Gods Spirit? But we have been given the Mind of Christ to "conceive" what is most inconceivable to "those who love Him". Love defines as being "obedient to His commands". Interestingly enough "these have a right to enter in" to the very paradise of God.
Heres some comparable places to "consider" some not having the words "tree of life" and others which do and I can see the "oneness" of us with Him in these things.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, "THERE" ye may be also[/u].
HE is "THE DESIRE" who "comes"
Prov 13:12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: BUT WHEN "the desire" cometh, IT IS a tree of life.[/u]
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]
To overcomers
Rev 2:7 Rev 2:7 To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is "in the midst of" the paradise of God.[/u]
Some did overcome
1John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.[/u]
This is interesting
Prov 11:30 The fruit of "the righteous" IS a tree of life;...
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, THERE shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; "no more can ye", except ye abide in me.[/u]
Prov 15:4 A wholesome tongue IS a tree of life[/u] (wholesome words of Christ)
John 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.[/u]
Then notice this, interesting... an entrance is "ministered to one" only HE can open
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/u]
2Peter 1:1 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it "shall not be shut at all" by day: for there shall be no night there.[/u]
Darkness is "called night" in Genesis both used interchably
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:[/u]
And just as there is "no night" THERE and the gates are not shut BY DAY[/u] (HIM)
1Thes 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of "THE DAY": we are not of the night, "nor of darkness".
As a spiritual city, or house. Becoming the holy habitation of God. So that the "true Greater is HE" that is "within us" is greater then he who is in the world. We might be "in the world" but no longer of it anymore as we walk by His light, which is to walk in love, the evidence of God dwelling in us and with us. No night in the city being expressed in revelation and John in spiritual truths that become our reality in Christ.
Just a few verses I have thought on and was truly blessed of them.
Daniel
mercie:
This is Interesting Ray mentions this here
--- Quote ---Quote:
DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden."
--- End quote ---
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter
This is not the paradise Ray describes to Scott.
It would be interested to see Rays response in Full to this.
chrissiela:
--- Quote ---Garden of His delight perhaps?
--- End quote ---
Funny you should say that... know what Eden means??
Chrissie
eutychus:
perhaps third heaven means complete?
perhaps paul saw heaven in its completeness
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
Go to full version