> General Discussions
Paradise
orion77:
Alex, glad you said something. It's always good to learn new things from the word. Like hunting for buried treasure, never know what we will come across.
God is so good, He makes us seek and search, ask and be given, knock and it will be opened. Truly amazing.
God bless,
Gary
eutychus:
acsend and descend dont mean up and down, the way we think.
there are unseen particals all around us :shock:
while heaven isnt physical it is LITERAL.
chrissiela:
--- Quote from: Christine ---Hi Ray, How are you? Christine here. I have a question (or comment) regarding an email that was posted recently in the forum about paradise and heaven.
In an exchange with Scot you said (bold are mine):
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
Doesn’t 2 Cor 12:2-4 refer to paradise as “the third heaven�?
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Not asking on an explanation of what/where is paradise, as I know you said this in not on the top of your priority list and you will write about it sometime in the future… just bringing this to your attention, as it drew some questions.
Thanks,
Christine
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Ray ---Dear Christine:
Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Christine ---Hi Ray;
Sorry, I did not realize until now that you have answered my earlier email (copied below). I sent it from work so will not see the reply until I return to work on Monday.
But I just saw that it was posted on the forum.
You Said:
"Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?"
No, I do not think that the third heaven is a geographical location higher than the first and second heavens. However I do see it being higher (or "far above") all other heavens. But I see these as spiritual realms and not physical locations. With the third heaven (or Paradise of God) being where Christ is seated at the right hand of God and where we are seated with Him (spiritually speaking).
It is by and through the blood of Christ that we now have access to the Father and may "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may abtain mercy".
The veil has been rent and the heavens have been opened. I sort of see it at the Holy of Holies (or the Holiest Place), spiritually speaking...
Psa 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There are probably a lot more scriptures that I could point to but I'll just finish it up with these in Ephesians, as I see the "third heaven" as being "far above all principalities and power and might and dominion... ":
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I see the third heaven as "the heaven of heavens".... "far above all heavens".... where Christ ascended and where His throne is.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I wasn't trying to add confusion. I only asked because of my own confusion over your statement about paradise not being heaven or likened to heaven in the scriptures. That threw me off, based on 2 Cor 12:4 and the other verses that I mentioned, but specifically 2 Cor 12:4.
I see now that you agree that paradise is the third heaven? Or am I still confused?
Blessings,
Christine
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Ray ---Dear Christine:
When I said I would do a paper on this, I didn't mean now. I will not try to write my paper one section at a time in emails. Hope you understand. You could have quoted the nearly 700 Scriptures on heaven, and it still would not prove you point.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Christine feels insulted.... :cry: :cry:
--- Quote ---Dear Ray,
As I said, I wasn't trying to get you to write a paper. Neither was I trying to prove a point, except that paradise is mentioned in the scriptures in relation to the third heaven (whatever and whereever that is).
Forgive the intrusion, I was merely trying to clear up what appeared to be a contradiction in what you said, as it caused some confusion.
Thank you for your time,
Christine
--- End quote ---
Then she ponders it somemore.... and feels like an even worse 'idiot'!! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
--- Quote ---Hi Ray:
Christine again.
I think I just realized where I was reading this wrong... may I ask another question for further clarification to be sure?
You said:
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
When I read: "In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven?"
It sounded as if you were were saying that there was NO way in which the scriptures liken paradise to heaven... because of the statements that immediately preceeded that statement....
Now I am seeing (????) that you are asking "in what way DO the scriptures liken paradise to heaven?" (which is covered in the 2 Cor 12:4 - that I sent).
And 'this' is what you meant by "Exactly." ??
If so, then I think that does clear up the confusion.
Blessings,
Christine
--- End quote ---
I think that clears it up.... but I am still waiting on the reply....
Chrissie
ciy:
Alex, the next verse Gen. 8:12 says he sent the dove out and it did not return. I believe the next time in the scriptures that you see a dove lighting on something is at the baptism of Jesus.
Pretty interesting.
CIY
mercie:
--- Quote from: chrissiela ---
--- Quote from: Christine ---Hi Ray, How are you? Christine here. I have a question (or comment) regarding an email that was posted recently in the forum about paradise and heaven.
In an exchange with Scot you said (bold are mine):
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
Doesn’t 2 Cor 12:2-4 refer to paradise as “the third heaven�?
2Co 12:2-4 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Not asking on an explanation of what/where is paradise, as I know you said this in not on the top of your priority list and you will write about it sometime in the future… just bringing this to your attention, as it drew some questions.
Thanks,
Christine
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Ray ---Dear Christine:
Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Christine ---Hi Ray;
Sorry, I did not realize until now that you have answered my earlier email (copied below). I sent it from work so will not see the reply until I return to work on Monday.
But I just saw that it was posted on the forum.
You Said:
"Exactly. But don't think that the "third heaven" is a geographical location higher than the first or second heaven. What is heaven? Where is heaven?"
No, I do not think that the third heaven is a geographical location higher than the first and second heavens. However I do see it being higher (or "far above") all other heavens. But I see these as spiritual realms and not physical locations. With the third heaven (or Paradise of God) being where Christ is seated at the right hand of God and where we are seated with Him (spiritually speaking).
It is by and through the blood of Christ that we now have access to the Father and may "come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may abtain mercy".
The veil has been rent and the heavens have been opened. I sort of see it at the Holy of Holies (or the Holiest Place), spiritually speaking...
Psa 11:4 The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
There are probably a lot more scriptures that I could point to but I'll just finish it up with these in Ephesians, as I see the "third heaven" as being "far above all principalities and power and might and dominion... ":
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
I see the third heaven as "the heaven of heavens".... "far above all heavens".... where Christ ascended and where His throne is.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
I wasn't trying to add confusion. I only asked because of my own confusion over your statement about paradise not being heaven or likened to heaven in the scriptures. That threw me off, based on 2 Cor 12:4 and the other verses that I mentioned, but specifically 2 Cor 12:4.
I see now that you agree that paradise is the third heaven? Or am I still confused?
Blessings,
Christine
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Ray ---Dear Christine:
When I said I would do a paper on this, I didn't mean now. I will not try to write my paper one section at a time in emails. Hope you understand. You could have quoted the nearly 700 Scriptures on heaven, and it still would not prove you point.
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Christine feels insulted.... :cry: :cry:
--- Quote ---Dear Ray,
As I said, I wasn't trying to get you to write a paper. Neither was I trying to prove a point, except that paradise is mentioned in the scriptures in relation to the third heaven (whatever and whereever that is).
Forgive the intrusion, I was merely trying to clear up what appeared to be a contradiction in what you said, as it caused some confusion.
Thank you for your time,
Christine
--- End quote ---
Then she ponders it somemore.... and feels like an even worse 'idiot'!! :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
--- Quote ---Hi Ray:
Christine again.
I think I just realized where I was reading this wrong... may I ask another question for further clarification to be sure?
You said:
….. “DON'T "assume" that "paradise" means heaven. Why would you do that? Is there any Scriptural justification for that? NO, no there isn't. In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven? Most theologians assume things that AREN'T there, and then teach the absolute opposite of what things ARE in the Scriptures. "Paradise" is a Persian word that means "park or garden." …..
When I read: "In what way do the Scriptures liken paradis(e) to heaven?"
It sounded as if you were were saying that there was NO way in which the scriptures liken paradise to heaven... because of the statements that immediately preceeded that statement....
Now I am seeing (????) that you are asking "in what way DO the scriptures liken paradise to heaven?" (which is covered in the 2 Cor 12:4 - that I sent).
And 'this' is what you meant by "Exactly." ??
If so, then I think that does clear up the confusion.
Blessings,
Christine
--- End quote ---
I think that clears it up.... but I am still waiting on the reply....
Chrissie
--- End quote ---
Chrissie.
Im sure Ray will do a paper one day on it to clear it up.
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