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Craig

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Tithe
« on: June 08, 2006, 02:52:00 PM »

Dear Ray,  

 Thank you for your reply! I would like to hear your response to my comments.

I agree New Testament Giving has nothing to do with the mandatory Old Testament Law of tithing.

We are not obligated by law to give tithe or 10 percent of our income. The New Testament covenant of grace is greater than the law, and although we are not under the law or obligated to give we should be willing to give even more than a mere 10 percent of our income.

Jesus said, “Give and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.? As we give to God we receive from God!

2Cor.9:6-10 says, “But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written:? He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures for ever.? Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness.?

The New Testament giving should never be forced on anyone, and if people are taught properly about giving they should want to give even more than a mere tithe, or 10 percent of their income. The problem is people are not taught properly how to give!

The real problem is the sinful nature of man, which is selfish and doesn’t want to give to God a portion of what he has given them. People in general, rather spend their money in the way they want to, which is generally on them, instead of giving to God. I find most people are greedy and are like the rich young ruler in Matt.19:21 but forget about giving it all, they won’t even give a mere 10 percent back to God who gave it to them in the first place. They should remember 2Cor.9:6, “He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.? They should also give from right motives, willingly and joyfully according to (2Cor.9:7).

To give to God 10 percent or more is an act of faith, which requires we believe His Word, and that we trust Him to meet our needs. Rom.14:23 says, “…for whatever is not from faith is sin.?

Thank you for your time.

God Bless you,

Jeff

 

Dear Jeff:

There is a problem with the statement "give to God."  Just how does one give to God?  When one gives large sums of money to so heretical, lying, two-faced charatan and worldly preacher, is he truely "giving to GOD?"  I think not. Will such foolish and unscrip;tural giving be blessed?  I think not.  Giving to your own family, now THAT'S GIVING TO GOD.  God places far more emphasis on supporting one's own family, than He does on making millionaires out of phony preachers.

God be with you,

Ray
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Craig

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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 02:56:15 PM »

Dear Ray,
     
Thank you for your reply! Here is my response and you ask me to show you one Scripture regarding God wanting to give of our money for His work and the needy. I hope I have effectively done do with my words below. I would like to hear a response. You don’t have to rush, take your time pray and study and then get back to me. Thanks!
     
While there may be pastors who are greedier than their parishioners, this is not an excuse to neglect our God given responsibility to give to the Lord. We should use discernment and wisdom in our giving. The church we attend should be reaching the lost and disciplining them, reaching out to the poor in their community through various ways, and meeting their needs. The church should have a fund to meet the needs of their own members. They may have a fund for missions or church planting or both.

The average church size in America a few years ago was 30-35 people; no pastor is going to get rich off the congregation. If they receive a wage, the board generally sets the amount of the wage the pastor will receive. If they are apart of a denomination, the denominational leaders will advise the board as to a fair compensation. Many pastors in different denominations are bi-vocational because they either don’t receive any compensation, or the amount they receive is not enough to meet the basic necessities of their family. They do this and suffer financial hardship out of love for God and their fellow man. Jesus and the twelve disciples received support, Luke 8:1-3 “Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went throug h every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God . And the twelve were with Him, and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities- Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided of Him from the substance.? Other Scriptures concerning the support of ministers are 1Cor. 9:7-14; 2Cor.11:7-8; Phil.4:10-19.
         
Notice, the Apostle Paul said, “Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.? (1Cor.9:14). This requires us to give!

You asked me to show you one Scripture where God wants our money. He wants all of us, everything, including our money with nothing held back! God wants us to give our money to Him or for His work, preaching the gospel, taking care or those in need. In Acts 20:35 Jesus said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.? If the Lord commanded those who preach to live from their ministry of the gospel who are we to go against the Lord and with hold our giving to the minister, preacher, pastor. Jesus said in Luke 6:38 , “Give and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.? As we give to God we receive from God!
       
In Luke 7:1-5, we are told of the centurion who love the Jewish people and built them a synagogue. Here you have a Roman man who loves the Jewish people enough to build them a synagogue out of his own money so they would have a place to worship God. This was not his people, yet he still gave of his own money and he spent a lot of money building the temple. He didn’t seem to be concerned with the greediness of the priests or even that they were of another race. In Acts 4:32-37 we are given a good example of giving and sharing all things.      

2Cor.8:1-7, tells us of their sacrificial giving to share their finances, giving themselves to the Lord first and then to those in need. We must give ourselves to the Lord in full surrender, total commitment, and complete dedication to the Lord and then we give to Him or His work and to the needy. Jesus said, in Matt:10:42 “And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall be no means lose his reward. In Luke 21:1-4, who are told of the poor widow who did more than just tithe she gave all she had. Jesus did not stop her from giving all she had for any reason! If she was not rewarded for her giving while on earth, she will in heaven.

2Cor.9:6-10 says, “But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written:? He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures for ever.? Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness.?
         
James 2:26? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.? This would include the work of giving! “But some will say, “You have faith, and I have works,? Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.? (James2:18).
       
Jesus said, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.? (Matt. 4:4).
         
Jesus also said; “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law of the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but of fulfill, for assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of the commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by know means enter the kingdom of heaven.? (Matt.5:17-20).    

In 1Cor. 10:1-11 give us Old Testament examples, and in vs.11 say, “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. If we are to live by every Word of God and it includes the Old Testament examples we can gain some insight to the principles we find. The principle of tithe came before the Law of Moses, as a have already shared with you.
         
Jesus told the Pharisees in Luke 11:42, “These you ought to have done…? saying they were correct in their giving of their tithes. Under the Law of Moses, every Jew was required to give three tithes, one for the Levites, one for the temple and the great feasts, and one for the poor. The point is they gave more than just a tenth. Jesus confirmed their giving of their tithe. He did not change it, or tell them not to give it because of their greediness of the priests, even though He new how wicked their hearts were.

Jesus said, “Therefore if you bring your gift to the alter….leave your gift there before the alter…? Matt.5:23-24. Jesus took “You shall not murder? or “kill? and prohibited anger and He encouraged us a believers to give, Matt.5:42 “Give to him who asks you, and form him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.?

When we withhold our giving or financial support from the Lord by failing to answer His call to give of our income to Him for His work through ministers, and to the needy, we rob God of the opportunity to bless us, Matt:10:42; 2Cor.9:6; Mal.3:10.

2Tim.2:16 “ALL SCRIPURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPOOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.?

IPet.1:25 “BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.?      

Heb.13:8 “JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER!?      

Mal.3:6 “FOR I AM THE LORD, I DO NOT CHANGE…?      

Ray, thank you for your time, I hope this helps you! Take care and I hope to here from you soon!

Remember the words of Paul to Timothy, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.? Rightly dividing means to: make a straight cut, to dissect and expound correctly the divine message.

May the Lord Bless you, and give you wisdom!
In His Love,

Jeff


Dear Jeff:
How is building a synagogue for the Jews under the Old Testament law of tithing, twisted into meaning that he gave MONEY to the Church that Jesus Christ built? The religion of the Jews with their synagogue worship was TOTALLY CORRUPT, or have you not read the rest of the New Testament? (Matt. 23)
 
Listen:  "Did not Moses give you THE LAW and yet NONE OF YOU KEEP THE LAW...." (John 7:19).  Don't try to contradict me, Jeff, you are out of your league!
 
I personally teach with strong words in my paper on tithing, that God wants all of US, not all of OUR MONEY.  Get real, will you?  "I beseeth you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present you BODIES [not your MONEY, but 'your bodies'] a LIVING sacrifice [not a DEAD sacrifice of money in your bank], holy, acceptabile unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Rom. 12:1).
 
Don't try to make a sham out of the marvelous truths of God.  You want Paul?  I'll give you Paul:  "And having FOOD and RAIMENT let us be therewith  content" (I Tim. 6:8).  Where do you see GOLD and SILVER, or MONEY in that verse?  I devote ten to wenty hours a day to my ministry, and I receive not one PENNY for any of it.  Nor do people give me "food and raiment" for my services.  I am a semi-retired roofer and have to work on the side to provide a reasonable living for my family. You won't ever hear me complain about not having enough money from those I minister to.
 
This whole abominable tithing doctrine of the modern church makes me sick!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Craig

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Tithe
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2006, 10:18:14 AM »

Dear Ray,

Thank you for your reply! Here is my response and you ask me to show you one Scripture regarding God wanting to give of our money for His work and the needy. I hope I have effectively done do with my words below. I would like to hear a response. You don’t have to rush, take your time pray and study and then get back to me. Thanks!

While there may be pastors who are greedier than their parishioners, this is not an excuse to neglect our God given responsibility to give to the Lord. We should use discernment and wisdom in our giving. The church we attend should be reaching the lost and disciplining them, reaching out to the poor in their community through various ways, and meeting their needs. The church should have a fund to meet the needs of their own members. They may have a fund for missions or church planting or both.

The average church size in America a few years ago was 30-35 people; no pastor is going to get rich off the congregation. If they receive a wage, the board generally sets the amount of the wage the pastor will receive. If they are apart of a denomination, the denominational leaders will advise the board as to a fair compensation. Many pastors in different denominations are bi-vocational because they either don’t receive any compensation, or the amount they receive is not enough to meet the basic necessities of their family. They do this and suffer financial hardship out of love for God and their fellow man. Jesus and the twelve disciples received support, Luke 8:1-3 “Now it came to pass, afterward, that He went throug h every city and village, preaching and bringing the glad tidings of the kingdom of God . And the twelve were with Him, and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities- Mary called Magdalene, out of whom had come seven demons, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod’s steward, and Susanna, and many others who provided of Him from the substance.? Other Scriptures concerning the support of ministers are 1Cor. 9:7-14; 2Cor.11:7-8; Phil.4:10-19.

Notice, the Apostle Paul said, “Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel.? (1Cor.9:14). This requires us to give!

You asked me to show you one Scripture where God wants our money. He wants all of us, everything, including our money with nothing held back! God wants us to give our money to Him or for His work, preaching the gospel, taking care or those in need. In Acts 20:35 Jesus said, “It is more blessed to give than to receive.? If the Lord commanded those who preach to live from their ministry of the gospel who are we to go against the Lord and with hold our giving to the minister, preacher, pastor. Jesus said in Luke 6:38 , “Give and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.? As we give to God we receive from God!

In Luke 7:1-5, we are told of the centurion who love the Jewish people and built them a synagogue. Here you have a Roman man who loves the Jewish people enough to build them a synagogue out of his own money so they would have a place to worship God. This was not his people, yet he still gave of his own money and he spent a lot of money building the temple. He didn’t seem to be concerned with the greediness of the priests or even that they were of another race. In Acts 4:32-37 we are given a good example of giving and sharing all things.

2Cor.8:1-7, tells us of their sacrificial giving to share their finances, giving themselves to the Lord first and then to those in need. We must give ourselves to the Lord in full surrender, total commitment, and complete dedication to the Lord and then we give to Him or His work and to the needy. Jesus said, in Matt:10:42 “And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall be no means lose his reward. In Luke 21:1-4, who are told of the poor widow who did more than just tithe she gave all she had. Jesus did not stop her from giving all she had for any reason! If she was not rewarded for her giving while on earth, she will in heaven.

2Cor.9:6-10 says, “But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work. As it is written:? He has dispersed abroad, He has given to the poor; His righteousness endures for ever.? Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness.?

James 2:26? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.? This would include the work of giving! “But some will say, “You have faith, and I have works,? Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.? (James2:18).

Jesus said, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.? (Matt. 4:4).

Jesus also said; “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law of the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but of fulfill, for assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of the commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by know means enter the kingdom of heaven.? (Matt.5:17-20).

In 1Cor. 10:1-11 give us Old Testament examples, and in vs.11 say, “Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. If we are to live by every Word of God and it includes the Old Testament examples we can gain some insight to the principles we find. The principle of tithe came before the Law of Moses, as a have already shared with you.

Jesus told the Pharisees in Luke 11:42, “These you ought to have done…? saying they were correct in their giving of their tithes. Under the Law of Moses, every Jew was required to give three tithes, one for the Levites, one for the temple and the great feasts, and one for the poor. The point is they gave more than just a tenth. Jesus confirmed their giving of their tithe. He did not change it, or tell them not to give it because of their greediness of the priests, even though He new how wicked their hearts were.

Jesus said, “Therefore if you bring your gift to the alter….leave your gift there before the alter…? Matt.5:23-24. Jesus took “You shall not murder? or “kill? and prohibited anger and He encouraged us a believers to give, Matt.5:42 “Give to him who asks you, and form him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.?

When we withhold our giving or financial support from the Lord by failing to answer His call to give of our income to Him for His work through ministers, and to the needy, we rob God of the opportunity to bless us, Matt:10:42; 2Cor.9:6; Mal.3:10.

2Tim.2:16 “ALL SCRIPURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, AND IS PROFITABLE FOR DOCTRINE, FOR REPOOF, FOR CORRECTION, FOR INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS.?

IPet.1:25 “BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.?

Heb.13:8 “JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY, AND FOREVER!?

Mal.3:6 “FOR I AM THE LORD, I DO NOT CHANGE…?

Ray, thank you for your time, I hope this helps you! Take care and I hope to here from you soon!

Remember the words of Paul to Timothy, “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth.? Rightly dividing means to: make a straight cut, to dissect and expound correctly the divine message.

May the Lord Bless you, and give you wisdom!

In His Love,

Jeff


Dear Jeff:

WORDS, WORDS, WORDS.  So many words, Jeff. All I asked you for is one Scripture where God has asked us for our M$NEY to support Christ's Church. Do you see the word "money" in ANY of the nonsense that you have present to me in answer to my question?  Well, do you?  I don't. You say, "God WANTS OUR MONEY."  Excuse me, Jeff, but where is the Scripture for that?

God be with you,

Ray
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Craig

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Tithe
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2006, 10:21:05 AM »

Ray, I forgot 1Timothy  5: 17 -25

1 Timothy 5:18 “For the Scripture says, you shall not muzzle and ox while it treads out the grain, and The laborer is worthy of his wages.? The bold is in red representing Jesus’ Words.

We don’t need to worry the Lord know their sins 1Tim.5:24-25 and “The Lord knows those who are His, and Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.? Thanks!

God Bless

In His Love,

Jeff

 
Dear Jeff:

You don't give up, do you?  Who wrote I Tim. 5:18?  It was PAUL, wasn't it. And what kind of "wages" did Paul take from the church?  The very very few times that Paul ever took "wages" from the Church, just what kind of "wages" were they?  Gold?  Silver?  MONEY?  Let Paul himself answer:  "I robbed other churches, taking WAGES of them to do you service" (II Cor. 11:8)  The word translated "wages" in this verse that Paul accepted to minister to the carnal Corinthians, is "opsosion" and it means "RATIONS FOR A SOLDIER."  So much for you MONEY Scripture.

God be with you,

Ray
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Craig

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« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2006, 10:25:26 AM »

Dear Ray,
        Wages, Strong's # 3800, lets take it a little further from the place you left off at. i.e. (by extens.) his stipend or pay: - wages. You do know they used money back then and the bought and sold about the same as we do to day ? They used money to buy food, land and the basics, and of course they also traded goods as well. Did you know that there are 11 different Greek words that mean money, and the King James uses other words instead of using the word money in many places?
          1 Cor. 9:11 "If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?". In 1 Cor. 9:14, the Lord Himself commanded the principle of support for those who preach the gospel.The elders would receive a suitable salary. Rom. 15:27 says, ".... For if the Gentiles have been partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister to them in material things. 1John 3:17-18 " But whoever has this world's goods, and sees a brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him? My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth." James 2:17-18 says, " Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "you have faith, and I have works" Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith b y my works".   Thanks again for your time. My eyes are burning so it is time to go night, night. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
        God Bless you,
     
        Jeff


Jeff: I know that they had money. I never said they didn't have money, but they were not to preach the gospel FOR MONEY!  "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: FREELY you ahve received, FREELY GIVE" (Matt. 10:8)--Jesus Christ.  "Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that you might be exalted, because I have PREACHED TO YOU THE GOSPEL OF GOD FREELY"  (II Cor. 11:17)--Apostle Paul following Christ's admonition.  Do what ever you want, Jeff. I am through with this conversation. I have no desire for anyone's filthy lucre.  I refuse to take MONEY for preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ!
Ray
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Craig

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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2006, 12:27:39 AM »

Dear Ray,
    I responded and answered your questions with scriptural support to back up what I was saying. You tended to avoid the questions I asked, and failed to refute most of the points I made. I have not seen any solid scriptural support for your view to this point.
    If you would please answer this one question, I would like to know what you do with 1Cor. 9:14 " Even so the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should live from the gospel". How do you go against the Lord's command? I really would like to hear that answer. Thank you for your patience, God Bless you,

Jeff
 

Jeff, really, I said this conversation is over. Jesus Christ said that we FREELY [do you have problem understanding the word 'freely?'] you have received, FREELY GIVED. That's what I do, Jeff. You can do anything you want, as this is a free country.  Paul followed the teachings of Jesus, and so he too preached the gospel FREELY.  And therefore I also follow Paul. Now if you want to "live from the gospel," that's okay with me, but don't try to convince me that TITHING MONEY is a New Testament commandment. It is not even an Old Testament commandment. Money is not a tithable commodity, and tithing is NOT SCRIPTURAL under the New Covenant.
 
Living of the gospel means that you can take food and raiment as I explained in another Scripture--how quickly you forget.  If you want a monthly SALARY, maybe you should get a job with a Fortune 500 company.
God be with you,
RaY
 
PS   Jeff, this conversation really is NOW OVER.
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