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Author Topic: Sinning before birth?  (Read 3557 times)

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deftarchangel

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Sinning before birth?
« on: June 09, 2009, 11:37:35 PM »

A point made in an article that got me thinking about John 9:2 :

And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

How could the blind man have sinned before he was even born?  I know we are all born with sin, but the question suggests a sinful act (or life) had been committed, and then the punishment for it (the man being born with blindness) had been meted out.  Where did the disciples get the idea that such a thing was even possible?  That's like something out of the doctrine of reincarnation or something like that (having sinned in a past life).  And even the Lord Christ didn't really invalidate either possibility.  He just said neither of those options was the reason for the man's blindness.  He didn't correct them on the technicalities of their beliefs.   ???

Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

Thanks.

 :)   

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NoviceBeliever

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 11:44:51 PM »

Deftarchangel:

An excerpt from Ray's Emails that may help you:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7769.0.html

 Illness
« on: July 25, 2008, 02:55:22 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you please comment on Henry W. Wright's  assertion that all physical illness has its origins in sin?



Dear Reader:  Certainly.  It is an amazing thing to me how that Christians will often spend many hours, years, and whole lifetimes, researching and writing books, etc., using as a premise something that can be totally invalidated by 30 seconds in the Scriptures.

Jesus Christ "knew NO sin" (II Cor. 5:20). Contrary to those deranged heretics who think this verse teaches that Jesus was the very personification of sin.  No, Jesus was "WITHOUT sin" (Heb. 4:15).  Now then, did Jesus ever experience sickness or disease?  Yes, matter of fact, He did.  Isaiah is a prophecy concerning Jesus Christ, and here is what it says:

Isa 53:3 He is despised959 and rejected2310 of men;376 a man376 of sorrows,4341 and acquainted3045 with grief:2483...." Strong's #2483, choliy, SICKNESS, DISEASE."

So much for Wright's assertion that "...all physical illness has its origins in SIN."

See also:  Luke 4:23--Why would Christ the Great Physician need to be "healed?"

Notice also:

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents [that is 'sinned to cause this blindness']: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

God be with you,

Ray
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mharrell08

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2009, 12:27:28 AM »

Deftarchangel,

Here is an excerpt from Lake of Fire series 16-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-C.html):

THE SIN OF A MAN BORN BLIND:

"And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth. And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:1-2)

What? How, pray tell, could this blind man be responsible for his own blindness when we are plainly told that he was born blind? Not only did the disciples believe the pagan doctrine that the soul is immortal, but they believed that souls could transmigrate from one body to another body.

The idea that the disciples are presenting to Jesus is the pagan doctrine known today as "The transmigration of souls." This doctrine teaches that souls do not just live on, as in "immortal" after death, in some fabled hellhole of eternal torture, or some heaven on a rock in outer space, but rather that at death, the immortal soul migrates to inhabit the body of another person about to born into the world.

Many in the world today continue to believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of souls. There are some pagans who believe that the souls of the dead can also reappear in the life of a pig, snake, nor some other animal.

Seriously, why would Christ’s disciples believe that a man could have sinned before he was ever born?

But what is even more remarkable is the fact that Jesus did not correct them, but rather went along with and acquiesced to their pagan notions. Jesus did not demean their foolish statement or their foolish belief, but countered with:

"Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents…" (John 9:3).

Jesus spoke the truth, for truly this man had not sinned (however, Jesus did not inform them that it would have been impossible for him to sin before he was born). But Jesus did not expose this pagan heresy to His disciples at this time. For what possible reason would Jesus want to keep His own disciples deceived?


This entire paper will help much in understanding as these scriptures:

Proverbs 26

v24  Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

v25  Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.



Thanks,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2009, 12:49:53 AM »

Several of the commentaries mention that it was a fairly common belief at that time of the transmigration of the soul and that is where the question from the disciples arises.  

Here is what was said in Adam Clark's Commentary of the Bible.

Joh 9:2 -
Who did sin, this man, or his parents - The doctrine of the transmigration of souls appears to have been an article in the creed of the Pharisees, and it was pretty general both among the Greeks and the Asiatics. The Pythagoreans believed the souls of men were sent into other bodies for the punishment of some sin which they had committed in a pre-existent state. This seems to have been the foundation of the disciples question to our Lord. Did this man sin in a pre-existent state, that he is punished in this body with blindness? Or, did his parents commit some sin, for which they are thus plagued in their offspring?


Most of the Asiatic nations have believed in the doctrine of transmigration. The Hindoos still hold it; and profess to tell precisely the sin which the person committed in another body, by the afflictions which he endures in this:
v

It may be just necessary to say, that some of the rabbins believed that it was possible for an infant to sin in the womb, and to be punished with some bodily infirmity in consequence. See several examples in Lightfoot on this place.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this helps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 11:51:43 AM by Kat »
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deftarchangel

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2009, 02:02:11 AM »

That's great everyone.  That helps a lot.

Thanks very much.   :D
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gmik

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2009, 02:25:56 PM »

So, yes, All is from/of/into/out of/bcz of/for/<insert whatever>/GOD. So the sinning idea was strictly manmade, the answer is "so the works of God could be shown". Is that correct?  but many others that have been born blind never get their sight back and so no works of God are shown.  Is it just the potter/clay?  I must admit that has always confused me so I just skimmed right over.
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mharrell08

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2009, 02:28:48 PM »

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents [that is 'sinned to cause this blindness']: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I may be missing the boat some where along the line here with these verses.

In all of the numbers of time that I have come across these verses in John,I can honestly say that "The transmigration of souls" pagan belief had not ever even crossed my mind.I had always thought the answer was always the very next verse "but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".    Is my line of thought concerning"who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? not answered plainly by Jesus?

 Is not ALL from God? ???



Peace...Mark


So, yes, All is from/of/into/out of/bcz of/for/<insert whatever>/GOD. So the sinning idea was strictly manmade, the answer is "so the works of God could be shown". Is that correct?  but many others that have been born blind never get their sight back and so no works of God are shown.  Is it just the potter/clay?  I must admit that has always confused me so I just skimmed right over.


What is it, exactly, that is not being understood? So the members can be of assistance.
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Marky Mark

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2009, 02:43:52 PM »

Marques,its not that I do not understand the verse,but how could anyone of the Spirit not see that Jesus is saying that all is of and for the Father,and not of some past life in a pagan belief system. ???
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Kat

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2009, 02:54:31 PM »


Hi Mark,

John 9:2  And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
v. 3  Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

It seems to me that the Disciples at this time did not understand, as they were not converted.  Jesus used this occasion to teach them that, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should revealed in him."  

So even though we can understand what Jesus said, because we have the next verse where He explains it.  Maybe this was the first time that He was teaching this truth to the Disciples, so they did not know.  

Gena, it seems to me that Jesus is saying that this particular man's blindness was "that the works of God should be revealed in him."  Because this man was healed, so God's work was "revealed in him."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Linny

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 02:56:55 PM »

Since we are asking questions...
Quote from Ray (which I am in total agreement with)
"If I am to be healed, it will be abundantly clear that it is God’s accomplishment, and not mine.  Healing is linked to the forgiveness of sins, and only GOD can forgive sins—that is, to make them go away and nullify their harmful effects (Mark 2:5-12)."
Mar 2:5

(ASV)  "And Jesus seeing their faith saith unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins are forgiven."

"So the sinning idea was strictly manmade..."
Yes, the pagan idea of soul shifting but the idea of sin/sickness appears to be Scriptural. Am I missing something?

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mharrell08

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 03:02:04 PM »

Marques,its not that I do not understand the verse,but how could anyone of the Spirit not see that Jesus is saying that all is of and for the Father,and not of some past life in a pagan belief system. ???


Well, like Ray teaches about the Jews during Christ's ministry, they took on a lot of pagan beliefs...that's why the apostles asked about 'past sin in another life', how the Scribes did not believe in resurrection, the belief in marriage after resurrection, and other such heresies.


Marques
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aqrinc

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 03:04:35 PM »

Joh 9:2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Joh 9:3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents [that is 'sinned to cause this blindness']: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I may be missing the boat some where along the line here with these verses.

In all of the numbers of time that I have come across these verses in John,I can honestly say that "The transmigration of souls" pagan belief had not ever even crossed my mind.I had always thought the answer was always the very next verse "but that the works of God should be made manifest in him".    Is my line of thought concerning"who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? not answered plainly by Jesus?

 Is not ALL from God? ???

Peace...Mark

Yes Mark,

I am in agreement with your statement, it just appears to be a question because of your comment at the bottom. My understanding and Rays teaching and The Scriptures; match up with your statement.

george. ;D

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mharrell08

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 03:08:50 PM »

Since we are asking questions...
Quote from Ray (which I am in total agreement with)
"If I am to be healed, it will be abundantly clear that it is God’s accomplishment, and not mine.  Healing is linked to the forgiveness of sins, and only GOD can forgive sins—that is, to make them go away and nullify their harmful effects (Mark 2:5-12)."
Mar 2:5

(ASV)  "And Jesus seeing their faith saith unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins are forgiven."

"So the sinning idea was strictly manmade..."
Yes, the pagan idea of soul shifting but the idea of sin/sickness appears to be Scriptural. Am I missing something?

Linny,

Are you asking if healing is linked to forgiveness of sins like Ray states here? In what way do you believe them to be linked? Is that your question or is it something else?
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 03:21:38 PM by mharrell08 »
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Marky Mark

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 03:18:51 PM »

Kat,thank-you,the apostles were not yet converted. Living in the age we live in sometimes one can forget that information was at a premium,ie; no computers ;D :o.

Marques and George, thank you also ;)


Peace...Mark
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Kat

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2009, 04:48:21 PM »


Hi Lin,

I found this email that I think might help about out state at birth.

http://bible-truths.com/email13.htm --------------

There is NO FREE WILL IN MAN. Man has a "CARNAL MIND." Do you doubt what I say?  ALL MEN ARE BORN WITH A CARNAL MIND!

I believe there is a Scripture somewhere on that... Let's try Rom. 8:2,

    "For the LAW of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus have MADE ME FREE..."

No, that is not what Christendom and her High Priests teach. They teach that we are BORN FREE. That EVERY MAN HAS A 'FREE' will. But notice what this Scripture says, it takes a "LAW" to MAKE [when something 'MAKES' a person do something, he is no longer 'free' to do otherwise]... to MAKE "me FREE" Paul tells us.  Now then, what does this "Law of the Spirit" MAKE us free from?

    "..from the LAW if sin and death."

Another "LAW"! Do you realize just what a law is? A law is something that ALWAYS works in the same predetermined manner. Hence the Law of Gravity--which ALWAYS pulls things DOWN and not UP.
The 'law of sin and death' is a downward pull that NO CARNAL MIND CAN RESIST. Therefore, the idea that he possesses a free will that can CHOOSE TO NOT BE PULLED DOWN, is unscriptural foolishness!

    For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh [the flesh is weak and it cannot 'free-will' itself to be anything BUT weak and totally incapable of TURNING TO A GOD WHO IS STRONG], God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk NOT after the [weak] flesh [which always turns away from God] but after the Spirit [which is STRONG and ALWAYS turns toward God].

    For they that are after the flesh [a LAW of the flesh] do mind the things of the flesh [why? why don't they us 'free-will' themselves NOT to 'mind the things of the flesh?']: but they that are after the Spirit [the LAW of the Spirit] the things of the Spirit.  For to be carnally minded [that's how we are all born--first the natural, the carnal, then the afterwards the SPIRITUAL, I Cor. 15:46] is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is LIFE and peace. [And just why is that so?]... Because the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] against God [how can this be since the carnal mind is FREE to NOT hate God?

    The carnal mind is NOT FREE, it CANNOT freely choose to NOT HATE GOD. That takes another LAW--the POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT] against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, NEITHER INDEED C-A-N BE. [This verse says that the natural carnal mind of ALL MANKIND, absolutely CAN NOT 'freely choose' to follow and love God!]. So then they that are IN THE FLESH [Randy, every single person ever born is born IN THE FLESH] CANNOT please God. [They CANNOT! If they truly had a "free will" then they could 'freely WILL' TO PLEASE GOD, couldn't they?]  (Rom. 8:3-7)

No, Randy, they couldn't, because they have no such will that is "free." We all have a "will" alright, but is is anything but FREE. It follows the "law of the flesh" every time. Only the opposing force of the SPIRIT OF GOD can CAUSE MAN'S WILL to desire God and to voluntarily seek to please God. Yes, I voluntarily will to please God, but not because some phantom 'free will' allowed me to make that choice, but rather because "God DRAGGED ME to Christ" (John 6:44). And how thankful I am that He did. No, Randy, there will not be a FEW in heaven and the MAJORITY in hell for all eternity. God commissioned Jesus Christ to be the SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD.
----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Linny

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Re: Sinning before birth?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2009, 12:36:05 AM »

Thanks Marques and Kat,
I am not sure exactly what my original question was but it was off topic from the sinning before birth subject and I am too tired right now to figure it out! :-\ ???
Consider it answered! ;) ;D
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