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Author Topic: Is Jesus God?  (Read 4920 times)

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Arion

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Is Jesus God?
« on: June 18, 2009, 11:40:15 PM »

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10197.msg87041.html#new

Quote
Dear Lawry:  I have about 20 pages of notes for an article I plan to write soon entitled:
"Is Jesus God?"
 Most Christians somehow believe that "God" is the pesonal name
for the Father of Jesus.  Not true.
God be with you,
Ray

Ray, even though you don't directly post in the forum I know you read it.  You are such an inspiration to me and the others who know a bit of what you have had to endure and continue to endure over the past year.  Yet you are continuing to look forward and desire to continue the work.  I eagerly look forward to any additional teachings or audio's you might yet do in the future (as the Lord enables) and I know that anything you do from here on out will be tempered in the furnace of affliction and I will pay even closer attention to teachings that have come from this time in your life.

God bless you now and always!!

Doug
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:41:20 PM by Arion »
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Kat

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2009, 12:25:43 AM »


If you have a comment or question for Ray you need to email it directly to him at this address L.RaySmith@comcast.net

He has never visited the forum, as he feels it would take away too much time from his work of writing the articles.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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judith collier

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2009, 06:43:31 AM »

Light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made , one in being with the Father through whom all things were made.    And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us. Judy
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Craig

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2009, 09:10:39 AM »

Doug,

Kat is correct, Ray has never visited the forum.  Any questions answered from the forum has been from members who email him or when a moderator brings a question to him.   I hope to see Ray writing again but all is of God and His will be done.

Craig
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SeekingHIM

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 03:21:18 PM »

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10197.msg87041.html#new

Quote
Dear Lawry:  I have about 20 pages of notes for an article I plan to write soon entitled:
"Is Jesus God?"
 Most Christians somehow believe that "God" is the pesonal name
for the Father of Jesus.  Not true.
God be with you,
. . . . .

Ray

[Deuteronomy 6:4] Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord;

I'm trying to figure out all this language about God and Lord. I know this should be clear to me, but it is not.

Patricia
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aqrinc

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 03:28:58 PM »


Hi Patricia,

I missed your introduction, welcome to the forum. There is a lot of study and information on your question here:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Excerpt from: WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

WHO IS THE FATHER?

When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ, because they are one.   

Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father.  No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father.  He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement.  I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own. 

But in Spirit... the whole thing has to do with spirit and attitude, they are ONE! 

So it says in Acts 5:30 “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus.”   But when we read in the OT “the God of our fathers,” it was Jesus.  But what I want to show by that is the Scripture themselves gives us the latitude to recognize that no matter who the person is, whether it be the Father or the Son, it’s always God. 

It is always God.  Even Christ in His humiliation, in His physical form, where He was severely limited as a human being.  It may say it’s Jesus Christ speaking, but it doesn’t matter if it says it’s Jesus Christ speaking or the OT it’s Jehovah speaking.  We know if someone is speaking it’s NOT the Father.  Because He does not speak, except through the Son. 

So when Christ said, “I have come to reveal the Father” or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn’t necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father.  He’s going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past.  All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son. 

So when Jesus Christ said, “before Abraham was, I Am” they should have begun to realize... wait a minute are You saying that was You?  You talked to Moses? 
Now we know that some of the apostles, got it for sure.  Paul understood that spiritual Rock was Christ, that is who it was. 

Now at the last supper Philip did not know, he just didn’t know.  So He said “have I been with you so long, and you ask who the Father is, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father.”  Then He went on in different places to say a number of things.

“I and the Father are One.”  (John 10:30)
“I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.”  (John 17:21)
“The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)

It’s like, 'ooh, now I get it.'  By the time of the crucifixion and the next day after the resurrection, even doubting Thomas, he only doubted that Jesus was raised from the dead.  But once he knew it was Jesus and if you talked to him and said Thomas do you believe in God?  He would say, 'yes, sure I believe in God.'  Do you believe in the God of Abraham and Isaac?  He was there at that last supper and he would have said, 'sure I do.'  But did he really comprehend who that God was, that he thought he believed in?

george. :)

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 04:55:20 PM »

Here's your answer to Jesus and the Father.

Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

How many people? Two! How much flesh? One!

How many people? Two! Jesus and the Father. How many Gods? ONE! How many Lords? ONE!

Does that help you understand better?

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DMRH

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2009, 10:24:20 AM »



Does that help you understand better?



No it makes me more confused.

One of many examples is in Matthew 24:36. How could Jesus be Jehovah if he said he doesn't know what his fathers timing is.

As far as I know the "Jesus is God" theory started in the 4th century evolving with the trinity concept(wrong?) as the Jews believed Jehovah/God was a singular entity. If that be the case, wouldn't Jesus be a seperate singular God who obeys the will as his father (thus speaks as one)

Since scripture was "inspired by God" as they say, wouldn't God keep it reasonably logical so non-PHD humans could understand, get it right & obey....?

Ready for correction.  ???

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mharrell08

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2009, 10:55:35 AM »

No it makes me more confused.

One of many examples is in Matthew 24:36. How could Jesus be Jehovah if he said he doesn't know what his fathers timing is.

Hello DMRH,

Welcome to the forum  :)

Perhaps these scriptures can be of assistance...also there are a number of Ray' teachings about who Jesus is: (http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html) & (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html) as well as the email reply section under 'Jesus Christ' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html).

Matt 24:36  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only

Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Rev 22:13  I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Rev 2:5, 2:16, 3:11, 22:7, 12, & 20  "I [Jesus] come quickly..."


Hope this helps,

Marques
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aqrinc

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 01:40:38 PM »


DMRH,

One important piece of information for you; The name God is a Title, not the name of a person.

Three witnesses below in The Scriptures to make the point.

Psa 82:6  I have said, You are gods; and all of you sons of the Most High.

Isa 41:23  Reveal the near things after this, so that we may know that you are gods. Yes, do good, or do evil, so that we may be amazed and see together.

Joh 10:34  Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your Law, "I said, You are gods?"

Did you read any of this yet, if not it is a great study that should answer some of, if not all the questions you have on this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Excerpt from: WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

WHO IS THE FATHER?

When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ, because they are one.   

Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father.  No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father.  He’s not Charley McCarthy, He’s not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement.  I don’t know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own.

george. :)

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SeekingHIM

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 01:57:56 PM »

WOW!! What a lot of treasures to read through this afternoon. Thank you, all!!

I'm in the north part of East Texas. It's very warm. Not "Lake of Fire" hot, quite yet, but it's getting there.

Pat
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Ninny

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2009, 02:53:36 PM »

Pat! Texas is a big ole state! Do you live in the North like Amarillo  or Wichita Falls, Dallas, Texarkana?? There is a lot of North Texas to be in!! Woo Hoo!! I have family in Lubbock. Some of our very sweet forum family live in Texas. Give us more!!  :D Sorry, you did say EAST Texas silly me!!  We do get a lot of treasures to read here it is great being able to learn with and from everyone here! Glad you're here with us, too!
Kathy ;)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 03:17:56 PM by Ninny »
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SeekingHIM

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2009, 03:42:18 PM »

Reading this forum is likely to keep me from digging up potatoes in the garden this afternoon! We're just a few miles north of Tyler, TX. I'm going to print out as much as I can. I'll be leaving for the Rio Grande Valley in a couple of days and won't have internet access for at least a week. Thank you, thank you, everyone who has written here.

Pat
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2009, 03:45:56 PM »



Does that help you understand better?



No it makes me more confused.

One of many examples is in Matthew 24:36. How could Jesus be Jehovah if he said he doesn't know what his fathers timing is.

As far as I know the "Jesus is God" theory started in the 4th century evolving with the trinity concept(wrong?) as the Jews believed Jehovah/God was a singular entity. If that be the case, wouldn't Jesus be a seperate singular God who obeys the will as his father (thus speaks as one)

Since scripture was "inspired by God" as they say, wouldn't God keep it reasonably logical so non-PHD humans could understand, get it right & obey....?

Ready for correction.  ???



What Jesus said in 24:30 of matthew is true. However Jesus also recieved a revalation from His Father of all that was to come. I believe when Jesus spoke those words about not knowing the hour or time, He was completely honost. However the Father did give Him this information after He was raised from the dead.

Here are some simple plain scriptural truths you cannot deny about Jesus's relationship with the father;

"I and the Father are One.”  (John 10:30)
I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.”  (John 17:21)
The Words I speak, I speak of the Father.” (John 12:50)

Ray says;

So everything really is ONE.  All the other little twos, threes and fours are really of no consequence, compared to the ONE, see.  The One, the all.
So we read in Ephesians, Paul understood this, he didn’t copy it from some other place, he understood it.  

Eph 4:1-3  “I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit…" See “the unity of the Spirit” there is the key, we are one in and through SPIRIT.  
We are individuals, I have my personality, somebody else has their personality and some don’t have a personality, you know.   But we’re all individuals.  But we can be all one in spirit, that is what binds us together as one, spirit.  So “endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit.”  

I highly suggest if you are truly yearning for the truth and want to understand the relationship that Jesus and the Father share as being one God and yet one being the Father and the other the Son than i would recommend you read what ray has written;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

God kept it reasonably simple for someone like ray, a 'non-phdhuman' to understand. So go read this non-phd's human understanding of what God has said in His Word. I guarentee you'll thank God you read it!

God bless,

Alex
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SeekingHIM

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2009, 04:23:18 PM »

I am ever so grateful to my high-school choir teacher who had us memorize and perform Handel's _Messiah_. The words are still in my head, even after 40 + years. One of the songs hit me a few years ago as I struggled to understand who Christ was: [Isaiah 9:6] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

ALL those names for that Holy Child who would be born. I'm in awe. I guess I don't have to understand it all to appreciate it.

Pat
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Kat

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2009, 06:46:36 PM »


Hi Pat,

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 

Now by there being a creation we can understand that God does exist, but this still leaves me wondering... what exactly is God?

Col 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So we can understand this "invisible God" by the Son. 

John 1:18  No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Jesus Christ is who God created in a form of a man that we can relate to. Now we can know of the Father through Jesus Christ, otherwise I don't think we could have any comprehension of Him at all.

John 14:7  "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him."
v. 8  Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us."
v. 9  Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, "Show us the Father'?
v. 10  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.

Just some thoughts, hope it helps  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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SeekingHIM

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2009, 08:48:32 PM »

Thank you, Kat.
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OBrenda

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2009, 09:15:26 AM »

Interesting to note all these scriptures, don't include or mention the Holy Spirit as a third person!

YSIC,
Brenda
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Arion

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2009, 12:26:34 PM »

Ray partially dealt with this subject in his paper 'Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?'




Now let us recap what we have learned and bring it all together using the Concordant Literal New Testament:

Who and What is GOD?

"There is ONE GOD, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL is..." (I Cor. 8:6).

"For there is ONE God" (I Tim. 2:5).

"You are my witnesses whether there is any god, any Power, any besides ME" (Isa. 44:8 Moffatt Translation).

"The ONE Who is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of HIS will..." (Eph. 1:11).

"Out of Him and through Him and for Him is ALL: to HIM be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Rom. 11:36).

"...your heavenly Father IS PERFECT" (Mat. 5:48)

"God IS LOVE" (I John 4:8).

"God IS SPIRIT" (John 4:24).

"...the INVISIBLE GOD" (II Cor. 4:4).

"Now it is eonian life that they may know Thee, the ONLY TRUE GOD, and Him Whom Thou dost commission, Jesus Christ" (John 17:3).

Jesus called His Father "...the ONLY TRUE GOD" (Jn. 17:3).

"God is NOT A MAN..." (I Sam. 15:29).


Who and What is Jesus Christ?

Jesus Christ IS A MAN! "For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR of God and mankind, A MAN, Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

"Thou art the Christ, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD" (Mat. 16:16).

"Christ, Who is the IMAGE of the invisible God" (II Cor. 4:4).

"The Lord Jesus Christ, the SON OF THE FATHER" (II Jn 3).

"The BEGINNING of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14 JKV)

"God’s CREATIVE ORIGINAL" (Rev. 3:14 CLNT).

"If God were your Father, you would have loved Me. For OUT OF GOD I CAME FORTH and am arriving" (John 8:42).

"Nor Jesus said to him, Why are you terming Me good? No one is good except ONE, GOD" (Mark 10:18).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward God, and God was the Word" (John 1:1). (This is the proper order of the Greek words. Jesus is the Logos or Spokesman of God).

I believe most can see from the above Scriptures that there are numerous and fundamental differences between the Father and Jesus the Son. However, there are still reasons to ask whether or not Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, is not also "God.?" Is Christ for example, not worthy our worship? Dare we worship any but "God?" And if Christ is indeed "God," when isn’t He of the very same status, rank, authority, etc., as His Father? Good questions. Let’s take them one at a time......
« Last Edit: July 01, 2009, 12:28:35 PM by Arion »
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daywalker

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Re: Is Jesus God?
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2009, 02:36:35 PM »



Does that help you understand better?



No it makes me more confused.

One of many examples is in Matthew 24:36. How could Jesus be Jehovah if he said he doesn't know what his fathers timing is.

As far as I know the "Jesus is God" theory started in the 4th century evolving with the trinity concept(wrong?) as the Jews believed Jehovah/God was a singular entity. If that be the case, wouldn't Jesus be a seperate singular God who obeys the will as his father (thus speaks as one)

Since scripture was "inspired by God" as they say, wouldn't God keep it reasonably logical so non-PHD humans could understand, get it right & obey....?

Ready for correction.  ???



If you haven't done so already, read "Is God a Closed Trinity or an Open Family?":

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html


Ray goes into great details on this topic. It should answer most your questions, though you may need to read it more than once [as it is with most his teachings because they're so potent.]


Have a Good One!

Daywalker  8)
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