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Author Topic: first or second resurrection  (Read 3717 times)

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lauriellen

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first or second resurrection
« on: June 22, 2009, 11:32:20 AM »

hello all,
please forgive my ignorance, but i have a question that has been nagging at me for a while.  I have tried to find an answer to this question on this site, but can't seem to find one that quite fits exactly........i am hoping that someone can point me in the right direction........
i understand that those who have God's spirit at his second comming will be in the first resurrection, and those who lack God's spirit will be in the second....
right?....well, my question is.....
            HOW MUCH OF GODS SPIRIT IS ACTUALLY NEEDED TO QUALIFY
            FOR THE FIRST RESURRECTION?
i wonder about new christians that God is just beginning to work with, and they have had the "seed" planted, but have a long way to go in learning and understanding God's word, or those who have been at it maybe a little while, but still have more "sin" than "righteousness" in their lives, but are REALLY trying hard to do right.........and i also wonder about the younger teens and children that God seems to be calling, but they are years from having mature Godly understanding and charachter.  If any of the people in these situations were to die, having a SMALL measure of spirit/Godly charachter/understanding,
which resurrection would they be in according to scripture?
I realize that my question is purely based in selfishness, having in mind loved ones who have passed, and hoping against hope, that they MAY be in the first resurrection, but probably not likely........My carnal/fleshly person finds it almost impossible to to think about not seeing my loved ones for "an age or ages".........
Maybe then i have found the answer here, but i just can not accept it???? Please help open my eyes.
thanks,
lauriellen





















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musicman

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 11:40:56 AM »

Everything happens according to God's design.  If someone dies before becoming spiritually mature then I would think that it was God's design that they will be in the second resurrection.    And if you're chosen, you may judge them anyway.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 12:41:51 PM »

Lauriellen, what I'd share with you is a side-thought.  

The FIRST RESURRECTION is NOT an equivalent replacement for the orthodox doctrine of HEAVEN.  The LOF Judgement/SECOND RESURRECTION is NOT an equivalent replacement for the orthodox doctrine of HELL.  I think your current understanding is trying too hard to make these 'events' fall in line with orthodox teaching which you (and almost all of us) grew up with and believed.  

It's very difficult to shed so much theological baggage/garbage but the joy in doing so is tremendous.    

Keep reading and studying and always keep in mind that God is Love, that ALL sin and fall short of the glory of God, that Judgement is for a purpose, that NOBODY escapes judgement, and that the end of all this 'creating' is more than we can imagine.  

  

  
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

mharrell08

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 01:38:17 PM »

My carnal/fleshly person finds it almost impossible to to think about not seeing my loved ones for "an age or ages".........


From 'Spurious Passages of the New Testament' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html):

Rev. 20:5
 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*


* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. These not thus marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. The Epistles to Timothy, the latter part of Hebrews, and all of Revelation, are missing from the Vatican Manuscript, No. 1209, having been lost during the fifteen or more centuries since it was written. The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.



No one in the 1st resurrection will have to 'wait an age' to see those of the 2nd resurrection...there is no age or huge gap of time between the 1st and 2nd resurrections.

The entire purpose of the 1st resurrection is to 'bless all nations' [Deut. 28:1, Ps 72:11, Isa 26:9, Gal 3:8, etc]...Christ and His Elect will judge and bless all the nations, in righteousness. So the nations will have to be there...think of the 1st Resurrection as a 'purpose' instead of a 'status' or 'place in time'.

Though we know this judgment will be more severe than that on the Elect, remember the words of our Lord:

Matt 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, MERCY, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Ps 89:14  Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Isa 16:5  And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Zech 7:9  Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:


The Lord is not a hypocrite...He speaks to educate us on what we are to do, to be in His image...we cannot be in His image by doing anything that He Himself does not do. So we can see, that in judgment of the wicked (though wrathful & indignation) the Lord is STILL merciful.

His mercy endureth for the ages [Ps 136 - all verses]...there is no need to fear for our loved ones who died in their sins, unrepentant. They will receive mercy as that is who God IS.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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lauriellen

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 01:54:02 PM »

Marques,
so, are you saying that Rev. 20:5 should not be in our bibles?  Because i always understood that the "rest" of the dead would not be resurrected until after the "1000 years were finished".......
and are you also saying that the second resurrection will be "shortly" after the first? during the millenial reign?
thanks,
lauri
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mharrell08

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 02:28:26 PM »

Marques,
so, are you saying that Rev. 20:5 should not be in our bibles?  Because i always understood that the "rest" of the dead would not be resurrected until after the "1000 years were finished".......
and are you also saying that the second resurrection will be "shortly" after the first? during the millenial reign?
thanks,
lauri


Hello Lauri,

1. Yes, that excerpt of Rev 20:5 is not in the original manuscripts so that is why it should not be in bibles...God inspired the scriptures (original manuscripts) not bibles [2 Tim 3:16]

2. The 'millenial reign' IS Christ and His Elect reigning, judging, & blessing the nations...I don't know know how 'short' a time they are between each other (or even IF there is a length of time between the two); the scriptures don't say...but the scriptures are clear as to why and what purpose the 2 resurrections are for.

Ray covers this throughout his Lake of Fire series, particularly parts 12 & the 'Hell installments' (Parts 16+) as well as 'What is the Gospel of the Kingdom' bible conference study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html)...let me know if you need further assistance.  :)


Marques
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Kat

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 02:41:47 PM »


Hi lauriellen,

Php 1:6  And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.

God is not constrained by time and circumstances, like saying maybe if only someone would have had a little more time they would have made it, no.  God is sovereign and in control of every single thing that happen in everybody's lives.  Now as that verse states God will complete/finish what He has started in His Elect.  He is in control, so He knows exactly what He has planned to happen down through the course of time for each of the Elect to complete them.  He even has it planned out when the exact right number of Elect He wants will be reached and completed at the end of the age.  Everything has been planned out precisely from the beginning and those in the first resurrection or the second were intended to be there.  

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
       And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
       Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
       And I will do all My pleasure,'

No one has barely missed being one of the Elect, either you will be according to God's will or you won't.  We don't know for sure, but He does.  So don't worry about everybody else God will take care of them exactly as it needs to be, whether it's the first or second resurrection.  To have been given life and breath is a miracle and we know everyone is assured to be saved.  God loves everyone very much, more than we can know and He will save all, just some now and the rest later.  


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9502.0.html -------

John 3:16 For God so loves the world.

Not He loved, past tense.  He's still loving, it's not come to an end.  It's not like used to love the world, but now He doesn't, God still loves the world.  Now they got it right in the rest of the verse.  For God so loves the world…“ then, for whosoever believed on Him.  No, “whosoever believeth” present progressive.  He so loves those that believes and they should not be perishing, but be having eonian life.

John 3:16 For God so loves the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not be perishing, but be having eonian life.
------------------------------------------------------------------

There is the resurrection from the dead, there is no Scripture that says resurrections.  The Elect will be raised before the rest or first.

Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first(4413) rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

G4413 foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 11:55:59 PM by Kat »
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mharrell08

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 04:07:49 PM »

There is the resurrection from the dead, there is no Scripture that says resurrections.  The Elect will be raised before the rest or first.

Rev 20:6  Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first(4413) rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

G4413 foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.


Thank you Kat...I hope I did not cause confusion by saying 'resurrections'...I was differentiating between the resurrection of the just and resurrection of the unjust. [Dan 12:2, John 5:29].


Thanks,

Marques
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Kat

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 05:03:55 PM »


Hi Marques,

I was not correcting your statement as I could see what you meant.  I thought that might help lauriellen understand what the Scriptures says concerning the resurrection.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lauriellen

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 05:50:09 PM »

thank you so much for your responses.  I can see that i have alot more reading to do, but you have definately shed ALOT of light on this subject for me.
It is so AMAZING to me, that each time my eyes are opened to a new (to me) truth, it is like finding a gold nugget in a dirt pile!  such unexpected joy! I feel like i am getting to know God a little better each time and coming into a deeper understanding of His plan.  My "flesh" self gets hung up at times on "fleshly" things, but i am being led to see that God has got it all under control. I wish that everyone could "get it".
thanks again,
lauriellen
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Linny

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2009, 06:21:53 PM »

Marques and anyone else,
This is a quick change of subject but is there a place where one can go to see a list or something that talks about scriptures added to our Bibles not in the original manuscripts?
Lin
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mharrell08

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2009, 06:36:32 PM »

Marques and anyone else,
This is a quick change of subject but is there a place where one can go to see a list or something that talks about scriptures added to our Bibles not in the original manuscripts?
Lin


Here you go, Linny...Kat provides a link at the bottom: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html


Marques
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southland

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 11:24:11 PM »

What great thread thankyou Lauriellen :)

Thanks Kat, Marques, Dave In Ten for shedding light on this topic.

Matt :)
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Linny

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Re: first or second resurrection
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 11:04:47 AM »

Thank you Marques! ;D
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