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Author Topic: Forever and ever  (Read 3514 times)

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TheRysta

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Forever and ever
« on: June 22, 2009, 01:47:57 PM »

Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.

To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?

It also has to be noted that the Greek in the book of Revelation is different from the rest of the New Testament in some of the ways words are conveyed. Ages of the ages really could and probably should mean forever and ever. If it does not, then why didn't John just use the word 'aionios' as an adjective or at least MENTION as resurrection from this lake of fire which he never does! Only Paul does! Not even Jesus!

Remember also Revelation 15:7 where it says: ...God, who liveth forever and ever. God living into the ages of the ages... how could it make sense any other way? Surely it must mean forever and ever? Is the life of God finite?
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NoviceBeliever

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 01:54:17 PM »

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aqrinc

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 02:49:56 PM »

Quote
Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.

TheRysta,

There are no shortcuts to learning, Ray does explain quite extensively in his papers and answers your questions. You are making a lot of statements that seem to be on the surface very definite knowledge on your part.

Rev 15:7 (CLV)
And one of the four animals gives to the seven messengers seven golden bowls brimming with the fury of God, Who is living for the eons of the eons. (Amen!)"

Rev 15:7 (WEYMOUTH NT)
And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven bowls of gold, full of the anger of God who lives until the Ages of the Ages.


Quote
To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?

Rev 15:8 (CLV)
 And the temple is dense with the fumes of the glory of God and of His power. And no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven calamities of the seven messengers should be consummated.

Rev 15:8 (WEYMOUTH NT)
And the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one could enter the sanctuary till the seven plagues brought by the seven angels were at an end.

Reading the complete statement without adding your thoughts and preconcieved ideas to it, does make a large difference.

NoviceBeliever: gave you this link: http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm there is enough information there to get you back on track.

george. :)

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daywalker

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 02:50:54 PM »

This is from one of Ray's emails on Christian Hermeneutics. This should help some...

In Revelation 20:10, we find this phrase in the King James Bible:

"...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"

Probably many TENS OF THOUSANDS of scholars, translators, and men of the cloth skilled in "hermeneutics" have looked and read this phrase from the King James, and found it to stand the test of time and scrutiny, to remain as it was originally stated four hundred years ago.

Let's look at that phrase once again, not through the eyes of AWESOME (to be worshipped) "RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS," but through the eyes of a "roofer."

Tis true: I don't know a lick of Hebrew or Greek, and struggle horribly with the English language, but bear with me for a few moments:

Here is what this phrase "ever and ever" looks like in the Greek when in English, word for word, and then with the word for word English translation underneath each Greek word:

"tous     aionas      ton     aionon"
  the       eons     of the      eons

[1]  The article "the" (tous) has been completely LEFT OUT in the King James!

[2]  The NOUN "eons" or "ages" (aionas) has been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."

[3]  The PLURAL noun "eons" has been changed to the SINGULAR adjective "ever."

[4]  The GENITIVE "of" has been changed into the CONJUNCTION, "and."

[5]  The NOUN :"eons" (aionon) has once more been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."

Three little words, "ever and ever" has been a hermeneutical NIGHTMARE!  It has spawned visions of billions and billions of defenseless humans WRITHING IN UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE BY FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY, and supposedly perpetrated by the god that should be WORSHIPED for such crimes.

But what are the facts?  Here are the facts ... Three little words:

FIVE UNSPEAKABLE CRIMES AGAINST ALL KNOWN RULES OF LANGUAGE, GRAMMAR, AND TRANSLATION!!!

And that ends our lesson in "Christian Hermeneutics" for the day, boys and girls.



- Daywalker  8)
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TheRysta

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 03:14:35 PM »

How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?
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aqrinc

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 03:44:05 PM »

How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?

Where did John say this, or is this a rhetorical question ???, if so to what end or goal.

Forever and ever is an oxymoronic statement. According to all current understanding of present English word usage, forever cannot be plural or plus anything.

As Ray has shown, there was no word meaning endless time until one of the Popes (Justinian) i think, decided to make Christians live forever and Everyone else punish or burn forever. That is where the root words (Eon or Aion) meaning an age or eon (time period) was redefined to fit current Babylonian and daughter churches teaching by adding incorrect interpretations to them.

Talking about oxymoronic (Strongs Concordance includes these blatant falsehoods)

Again, Ray has shown in his papers that the only times endlessness is used in Scripture it is expressed as NO END.


Isa 9:7 (CLV)
To the increase of the chieftainship, and to the welfare shall be no end. On the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to prepare it, and to brace it with judgment and with justice, henceforth and in the future eon. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this."

Luk 1:32-33 (CLV)
32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation." (no end)

Luk 1: 32-33 (WNT)
32  He will be great and He will be called 'Son of the Most High.' And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His forefather David;
33  and He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end."

Thus, John would have no reason to say such a thing.

If you keep taking shortcuts, you will get to where you are heading, but miss all the reasons why, you took the trip, on your short route.


george. :)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 02:55:12 AM by aqr »
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Marky Mark

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 04:21:40 PM »

Quote
As Ray has shown, there was no word meaning endless time until one of the Popes (Justinian) i think, decided to make Christians live forever and Everyone else punish or burn forever. That is where the word Eon or Aion meaning an age or eon was redefined to fit current Babylonian and daughter churches teaching.   george


In concern to what George posted.   Email to Ray on Pope Justinian.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html

 i ray,
    here is another letter..please don't think i'm looking for holes in your messages as I do enjoy the reading as well as the knowlege I feel i've picked up  (thank you)
    ok my question you said eons had an end..I was always under the impression that eons ment An indefinitely long period of time (indefinitely meaning forever) where am I wrong is it in the translation?
     
    Ray   

     
    Dear Ray:
    Words are not defined by "impressions."  Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true.  It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting."  He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray




Peace...Mark
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daywalker

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 04:22:19 PM »

How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?

Well, John didn't say "forever and ever". This is an English mistranslation of the Greek Manuscripts.
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Arion

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 05:57:55 PM »

Quote
To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'.

Also,

...just to dovetail into what others have already said your reading this and probably thinking about literal, physical smoke here.  The book of revelation is spiritual and Jesus's words to John are spiritual.  Jesus said that his words are spirit and they are life.  There is no physical smoke that arises into the eons...it's a metaphor.  I think it's also wise advise not to jump around too much.  Ray builds on his teachings brick by brick.  If you jump way ahead in the LOF series you might get real confused.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:59:44 PM by Arion »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 06:33:04 PM »

Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.

To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?

It also has to be noted that the Greek in the book of Revelation is different from the rest of the New Testament in some of the ways words are conveyed. Ages of the ages really could and probably should mean forever and ever. If it does not, then why didn't John just use the word 'aionios' as an adjective or at least MENTION as resurrection from this lake of fire which he never does! Only Paul does! Not even Jesus!

Remember also Revelation 15:7 where it says: ...God, who liveth forever and ever. God living into the ages of the ages... how could it make sense any other way? Surely it must mean forever and ever? Is the life of God finite?

If the word Aion means "Forever" than revalation should technically read in many cases ; "Forevers of the forevers" and not "For EVER and EVER."

LOL even a child knows this is silly and redundant, what is forevers of the forevers?

God bless,

Alex
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 06:39:34 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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Samson

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 02:00:45 AM »

Hi,

       Forever and ever is an oxymoronic statement. According to all current understanding of present English word usage, forever cannot be plural or plus anything.



I copied and pasted this sentence from George's last Post(See Above), because that's an important aspect to consider for those who come upon the phrase: " Forever and Ever" in their particular translation of the Bible, especially those unaware of the correct meaning of Aion, Aions & Aionios, because you can't have more than one Forever, since forever means endless, you can't have more than one endless.

                                  Kind Regards, Samson.
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TheRysta

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 11:22:32 AM »

Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.

I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?
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mharrell08

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 11:25:45 AM »

Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.

I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?


No...a statement of fact is not a statement of limitation unless specified...the scriptures do not say God lives unto the ages 'only', the same way God states He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob...this does not mean He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob 'only' anymore than He lives unto the ages.

Hope this helps,

Marques
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aqrinc

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Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 12:53:07 PM »

Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.

I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?


Quote
To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'.

Also,

...just to dovetail into what others have already said your reading this and probably thinking about literal, physical smoke here.  The book of revelation is spiritual and Jesus's words to John are spiritual.  Jesus said that his words are spirit and they are life.  There is no physical smoke that arises into the eons...it's a metaphor.  I think it's also wise advise not to jump around too much.  Ray builds on his teachings brick by brick.  If you jump way ahead in the LOF series you might get real confused.


TheRysta,

Arion gave you the answer that Scripture and the Book of Revelation supports. Do you disagree with the answer or just missed it, Ray also teaches on the physical vs the Spiritual interpretation of Revelation.

Excerpt from: The Book of Revelation is a Book of Symbols:

http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html


LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?

In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.

The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.

Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.

The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true.

Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.

Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.

Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.

Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!

"This is the second death--the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15 and 21:8) is a metaphor that is no more literal than "Jesus taking the bread...said, ‘Take, EAT. This IS My body" (Mat. 26:26).

Paul did not instruct Timothy to "STUDY" the scriptures if a mere casual reading is all that is necessary to comprehend its many deep and profound teachings. On the other hand, I believe that those who have "studied" God’s Word are able to open up much understanding to those who are not called to teach (even babes, or minors as our Lord stated).

I want to quickly show my readers just how impossible it is to assume most of God’s word is literal.

Again I state: All God’s Word is TRUE, however, much of it is figurative language which is not literally true to fact, but rather in what the figurative language of symbols, metaphors, and parables represent.

If the following section is too heavy for you, just skip to the next heading.

george. :)



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Samson

  • Guest
Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 12:54:06 PM »

Hi,

     Below is an excerpt from Ray's paper entitled: IS EVERLASTING SCRIPTURAL, I copied the last few
concluding paragraphs from this paper, they aren't specifically addressing the Scriptures in Revelation
dealing with the phrase: " Forever and Ever," but are other examples of how Aionian(Eonian) is used and in
some cases misused(translated World(Gk-kosmos) instead, because the translators realized they couldn't
translate it as "Eternity," as it wouldn't make sense(2Tim.1:9) in these verses. Read Below !



Comment: And is this supposed to somehow magically prove that "aionios" does not mean "eonian," and cannot be translated, eonian? I think not. I think you have exhausted your silly straw man theory.

You stated early: Therefore the Hebrew word olam in the Hebrew Bible, and the Greek word "aionios" in the Septuagint are indeed translated "forevermore," correctly.

Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"

Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.

Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"

Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:

1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."

Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?

2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.

3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!

4. Jude 7—"Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The Greek reads: "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian." Well just how long does this "eonian/aionios fire last? Is it really "eternal" as the Authorized Version and you, contend?

A.      There is NO FIRE burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere, let along in the vicinity of these ancient cities. The best archaeologists can discern, Sodom is located at the bottom of what is now a sea.

B.      Ezekiel 16:55—"When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, shall RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then you [Jerusalem] shall return to your former estate."

The judgment of God against Sodom was decidedly not, ETERNAL. Here is clear Scriptural evidence and proof that "olam/aion/aionios," etc., DO NOT MEAN ETERNAL OR ENDLESS TIME. Give it up, Walter. The doctrine of "eternal torture" is the most evil doctrine, teaching, or concept ever invented in the history of the universe. It is the MOST blasphemous thing that could ever be attributed our Lord and Father. Give it up!

Ray


                                Kind Regards, Samson.

 
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Forever and ever
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 02:25:50 PM »

lol i just read what ray wrote and all i wanna do is shout; " YOU GO RAY!"

I love his style of teaching, its great! haha, indeed the spirit of our Father! :))
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