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Forever and ever
TheRysta:
Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.
To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?
It also has to be noted that the Greek in the book of Revelation is different from the rest of the New Testament in some of the ways words are conveyed. Ages of the ages really could and probably should mean forever and ever. If it does not, then why didn't John just use the word 'aionios' as an adjective or at least MENTION as resurrection from this lake of fire which he never does! Only Paul does! Not even Jesus!
Remember also Revelation 15:7 where it says: ...God, who liveth forever and ever. God living into the ages of the ages... how could it make sense any other way? Surely it must mean forever and ever? Is the life of God finite?
NoviceBeliever:
http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm
Hope this helps! NB
aqrinc:
--- Quote ---Can anybody please guide me to Ray's paper in which he talks specifically about the genitive use of the word 'aionios' in the book of Revelation in reference to 'forever and ever'? I am at the end of his third installment of the Lake of Fire series (there's a lot to read!), and he said that he would talk about it later on in the series. I was hoping to just skip to it because it's plaguing my mind.
--- End quote ---
TheRysta,
There are no shortcuts to learning, Ray does explain quite extensively in his papers and answers your questions. You are making a lot of statements that seem to be on the surface very definite knowledge on your part.
Rev 15:7 (CLV)
And one of the four animals gives to the seven messengers seven golden bowls brimming with the fury of God, Who is living for the eons of the eons. (Amen!)"
Rev 15:7 (WEYMOUTH NT)
And one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven bowls of gold, full of the anger of God who lives until the Ages of the Ages.
--- Quote ---To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'. I am pretty sure that it means for ever and ever. L. Ray Smith even says himself that he admists that there was no expression for everlasting (even though I thought it was the word 'aidios'), so in that case, how would John otherwise have portrayed the expression of 'ceaseless time' with the words available in his apocalyptic style of writing?
--- End quote ---
Rev 15:8 (CLV)
And the temple is dense with the fumes of the glory of God and of His power. And no one was able to enter into the temple until the seven calamities of the seven messengers should be consummated.
Rev 15:8 (WEYMOUTH NT)
And the sanctuary was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power; and no one could enter the sanctuary till the seven plagues brought by the seven angels were at an end.
Reading the complete statement without adding your thoughts and preconcieved ideas to it, does make a large difference.
NoviceBeliever: gave you this link: http://bible-truths.com/aeonion.htm there is enough information there to get you back on track.
george. :)
daywalker:
This is from one of Ray's emails on Christian Hermeneutics. This should help some...
In Revelation 20:10, we find this phrase in the King James Bible:
"...and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever"
Probably many TENS OF THOUSANDS of scholars, translators, and men of the cloth skilled in "hermeneutics" have looked and read this phrase from the King James, and found it to stand the test of time and scrutiny, to remain as it was originally stated four hundred years ago.
Let's look at that phrase once again, not through the eyes of AWESOME (to be worshipped) "RELIGIOUS SCHOLARS," but through the eyes of a "roofer."
Tis true: I don't know a lick of Hebrew or Greek, and struggle horribly with the English language, but bear with me for a few moments:
Here is what this phrase "ever and ever" looks like in the Greek when in English, word for word, and then with the word for word English translation underneath each Greek word:
"tous aionas ton aionon"
the eons of the eons
[1] The article "the" (tous) has been completely LEFT OUT in the King James!
[2] The NOUN "eons" or "ages" (aionas) has been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
[3] The PLURAL noun "eons" has been changed to the SINGULAR adjective "ever."
[4] The GENITIVE "of" has been changed into the CONJUNCTION, "and."
[5] The NOUN :"eons" (aionon) has once more been changed to an ADJECTIVE, "ever."
Three little words, "ever and ever" has been a hermeneutical NIGHTMARE! It has spawned visions of billions and billions of defenseless humans WRITHING IN UNSPEAKABLE TORTURE BY FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY, and supposedly perpetrated by the god that should be WORSHIPED for such crimes.
But what are the facts? Here are the facts ... Three little words:
FIVE UNSPEAKABLE CRIMES AGAINST ALL KNOWN RULES OF LANGUAGE, GRAMMAR, AND TRANSLATION!!!
And that ends our lesson in "Christian Hermeneutics" for the day, boys and girls.
- Daywalker 8)
TheRysta:
How would John have said 'forever and ever' if he had meaned to convey it?
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