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[Ninny]

Ryan,
Maybe you could look at it this way: If you wanted to deceive someone would you want them to learn to fear and hate God because he might burn them forever in hell thereby being able to control the greatest number of people with the least amount of effort OR Would you just let them believe that God loves them so much and He is such an awesome God that He would never torture His children for all eternity? There would be no way to control them if they knew that God is NOT a God of fire and vengeance!!  Do you see this Ryan?

The ones who believe hell is real are the ones who are afraid that if they DON'T believe it they're doomed to it!! The ones who DON'T believe in a literal burn-forever hell are NOT afraid that they will end up there. SO for some reason people are SO deceived that even the scriptures can't convince them there is no hell, there are people on this forum who can tell you that!

So if you were the deceiver, which way would you use try to convince a lot of people that they'd better work hard and be good so God will love and accept them..hmm you'd try to scare them! God doesn't need to give anyone a vision of what hell ISN'T because He has given us pure insight in the scriptures that there IS NO hell. Someone else can explain it a lot better than I..We have proof that we serve an awesome Living God who, just as no human parent would continue to spank a child for days on end for disobeying would never punish His children for eternity...

I hope I haven't added to your confusion,
Kathy

[bluzman]

All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.

Ryan, I don't understand your above statement. Now you've got me confused.
Is your statement a question? You have just used two negatives in the above sentence.
If you can't be convinced or convicted that the Hell doctrine is false, then I don't know what else to tell you.
Are you seriously studying any of Ray's writings? I don't want to be rude to you Ryan, but this is not a kindergarten class.
You have had more scriptural truths and understanding given to you here than most people will ever get in their lifetime, can't you see that? No you probably do not. I do know what a young man of 17 feels like, I was a young man of 18 many years ago. Please reread Ray's Lake of Fire series.
Take your time. When I go over any part of that series, which I have more than once, I can tell you that I always come away with more understanding than I had previously. I honestly hope that your eyes will be opened.
Sincerely,Bluzman
P.S. Is it hotter down south than it is in the summer?

[Astrapho]

All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.

I toyed with that thought once. But, which would you believe? Scriptures, or dubious testimonies that may be completely fabricated/unscriptural? Sure, they are good sources of encouragement, but ultimately, only scripture matters. You don't need testimonies to learn the truth.

[Linny]

All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.

Okay, let's look at this logically. I see apples and oranges. Carnal man, men with $ signs in their eyes, writing books, evil men wishing to scare people into joining a church, etc. tell us they've seen an imaginary place. Why then must God give visions to dispell these lies?
Obviously the one is of man and the other would have to be sent by God, right?

I don't need a vision. He opened my eyes through the Holy Spirit and gave me an understanding of His Word.

Which version of the gospel do you believe? That Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that we will be saved from permanent death, the wages of our sin? (easy to find clear, outright scripture for)
Or that Jesus died for only those who believe in His name before death and if we die in our sins without believing, we will go straight to hell? Beliefs NOT backed up by a single scripture.

You don't have to be a Bible scholar to just go to the Word and do a study. See which gospel you can back up with scripture.
My husband asked my BIL directly to give him the Scripture that said we had to be saved BEFORE death to be saved. This man has his doctorate in theology and is a pastor. He said, "There isn't one." But he still chooses to believe it. Let the Word teach you through the Holy Spirit. You don't need the testimony of men.

[aqrinc]

We can discuss this subject until the cows come home, but The Scriptures Say it this way very Explicitly.

1Timothy 4: 1-16 (EMTV)
1  Now the Spirit explicitly says, that in latter times some will fall away from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2  speaking lies in hypocrisy, having been seared with a hot iron as to their own conscience,

3  forbidding to marry, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who are believers and have come to know the truth.
4  Because every creature of God is good, and not one is to be rejected, being received with thanksgiving,

5  for it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer.

6  Instructing the brothers in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, being nourished by the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed.

7  But reject profane and old wives' tales, and exercise yourself unto godliness.
8  For bodily exercise is profitable a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the present life and of the coming life.

9  Trustworthy is this word and worthy of all acceptance.
10  For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

11  These things command and teach.
12  Let no one despise your youth, but become a pattern for the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in spirit, in faith, in purity.
13  Until I come, give attention to (public) reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

14  Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of the hands of the eldership.
15  Meditate on these things; be in these things, so that your progress may be evident to all.

16  Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

george. 

[TheRysta]

This is the thing. I've been reading Smith's papers and asking questions left, right and centre and I still really don't even understand how I can be 'shown things by the Holy Spirit'. I mean, how do you know? What the heck is it like? And since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?

[hillsbororiver]

Hi TheRysta,

The first problem might be;

........since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?

Seeking a "logical consensus around the world" is a sure recipe for failure, our journey is a One on one walk with our Lord not to have universal agreement in doctrines or knowledge. The wisdom of seeking Him first and foremost is the key to any spiritual growth.

1Co 3:19  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
 
1Co 3:20  And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
 
1Co 3:21  Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

2Co 10:12  For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

I hope this is of some help.

Peace,

Joe

 

[Marlene]

Rysta, I don't know about you. But, the Spirit in me is judging  me and showing me I am a Beast. There are so many days I can barely stand myself. It is the Holy Spirit working in me. Before, I thought I was a fairly good person. Now, my mind has been changed on that. I use to think other people were fairly good. Now, I just judge myself. The Holy Spirt has showed me so much wrong with me. Tonight, my Mother shared with me that there are days she can barely stand herself. She is 88 years old. She has never believed in most of Babylons teachings. But, there is a Spirit in her showing her that she is not fairly good. It made me feel good that she sees she is a Beast. I love her and hope she is wanting to overcome all the pain and her own flaws.  God knows what he is doing. I know, it is the Holy Spirit cause before I thought I was doing ok. I was not doing anything, of myself. I failed at that. Now, he is actually help me to overcome some sins, but still showing me a whole bunch of them.

In order to be a chosen  we have to learn the fruits of the Spirit. Not just knowing what they are but actually living them out.
Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Self-Control
Why would God want us to help judge if we cannot live them. I would not want someone to judge me if they lacked patience or gentleness. I see all of those things because the Holy Spirit is all of those things. I know, because he has been faithful in all those areas with me.

I guess what I am saying is that how could one not know that God is judging them and working on them. I believe they do know if they see the Beast.

I use to work with a woman from Jordan. She did not think God needed a Son. Not everyone in the world believes as we do. God is not judging everone in this life time. But, they will know once he opens there eyes and ears. They will go through judgement and they will see how wrong they were and what great love he has for them all. Love will win out. Correction is the best thing God can give any of his children.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Ninny]

Amen to that, Marlene!!
Kathy

[daywalker]

All I'm saying is, t'would be odd if we only had testimonies of hell but not testimonies of no hell.

It's all about the benjamins. There are millions of Hell-believing Christians that wouldn't hesitate to buy your books and CDs and pay to listen to you talk about how you [supposedly] went to Hell. There are millions more that would simply be intrigued enough to hear your testimony that they too would buy your books and CDs.

But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...


Daywalker 

[Terry]

a lot of children when they are very small learn that if they don't do this or that, or if they do this or that the Boogie Man will get them, as they get older its not the Boogie Man but the Devil that will get them, if we are taught something long enough we will believe it,Only God can deliver us from such teaching.
Terry

[Astrapho]

But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...

Amen to that...

Not to mention that the hell believers will be all over that guy! 

[daywalker]

But someone testifying that Christ spoke to them and told them that He'd never create such a god-forsaken place, and that He really does love everyone... well, to the carnal-minded man, that's just boring...

Amen to that...

Not to mention that the hell believers will be all over that guy! 

Yeppers! Ironically, they'd crucify him [or her] just as quickly as the Jews crucified their God, Jesus.


TheRysta,

You need to slow down and take a few breaths, my friend. You are eager for answers, and that is very good. These desires of yours to understand all the Truths of God are, in fact, from God Himself. And He will give you your answers in HIS time. For now, your focus should be on living the Godly life. Put what you've already learned into action. Then as you walk with Christ, He will reveal more and more to you... a precept here... a precept there... here a little... there a little.


"And since everybody's 'Holy Spirit's can't seem to come to any logical consensus around the world, can you even trust the one in your own head?"[/b]


Nobody has the "Holy Spirit" unless God put it inside them. Clearly, the world HAS NOT the Holy Spirit, as they "can't seem to come to any logical consensus". The world is lost; if you're looking for answers OUT THERE, then you will continue to be lost,

..."for lo! the kingdom of God is inside of you."--Luke 17:21.

And that is, of course, IF God put it there.

"For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good Pleasure--Phil 2:13

It seems as though you're expecting one day for everything to just *click*.. and then *boom* suddenly you have all the Wisdom of the Almighty. [don't we all ] Well, it doesn't happen like that.

Isa 28:10 For it is precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

13 Therefore the word of the LORD will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little; that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


We ALL must be BROKEN before God can REPAIR us, and reveal to us all His Sacred Secrets.

Psalms 34:18 The LORD is near to the brokenhearted, and saves the crushed in spirit.
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous; but the LORD delivers him out of them all.


In God's Time, my friend,

Daywalker. 

[TheRysta]

Thank you all for your input. 

As I gather from Marlene's posts the Holy Spirit works on people in different ways, as we all have different egos and different things about us which need correcting. It's odd because you act as if whenever a sin is revealed to you you feel ashamed. I am fully aware that I am a sinner, but I don't feel ashamed, nor do I feel proud. I am by nature quite a shameless person so I find it hard to comprehend what it is to other people... but if you're okay with it and you feel it leads to improvement then I have no quarrel. It's even made me think. Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.

@ Daywalker: Human lust for horror sickens me, but where are these testimonies? Even if I had just ONE it would make the difference.

It's funny. I have never had any experience of the Spirit. Or at least no obvious experience. I have ASD which gives me a very hightened sense of self and ego, so it's no wonder. However, I would never ever deny it. That's not out of fear, it's out of the evidence I see. It's like a knowledge of something I just haven't experienced. We can't prove God or Jesus but I would never lose faith in the Spirit. If only it knew me.

- Ryan

[Kat]

Hi Ryan,

You seem to want a vision/sign, but what did Jesus say about those seeking a sign...

Luke 11:29  When the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah.

Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.

So you think that God gets desperate?  When you consider that God is sovereign and that He is in control of everything, why would He be desperate to change people?  There is a reason why people believe in something that is not real (hell), the explanation is in Scripture.

2Th 2:11  Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
v. 12  so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This age is blinded to the truth (except for a very few) and it is intended to be that way.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.

When God is ready, He can remove this blindness in an instant, remember Saul/Paul.

Act 9:3  As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.
v.4  Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
v. 5  And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
    Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads."
v. 6  So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?"

After this Paul served the Lord for the rest of His life.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marlene]

Great Scriptures you have given Kat.

Rysta, I believe that feeling ashamed of my actions is how God led me to repentance. Showing, me exactly what I am does not set well with me. Taking a look at that Beast is not a pretty site. But, I know it is the goodness of God that leads to repentance so we cannot even take credit for that. I know, God has everything in control. I have to learn to hate the things of the world. If, I continue to love them what good is any of this for me. But, I will learn and have victory as God leads.

In His Love,
Marlene

[daywalker]

Hello again Rysta,

To add to what Kat posted... you do appear to want some sort of visible or physical evidence to prove God's existence to you. But the problem is, suppose He did manifest Himself in an obvious way, and erased all your doubts... what would happen to your "faith"? Well, you wouldn't need "faith" anymore, because you'd have your "proof". And once you prove something, it becomes a "fact" of which requires zero "faith" to believe.

But God wants us to have faith. And He wants our "faith" to grow and mature. If He wanted to prove to the world He exists, He'd simply do so... which one day, He will. But until then,

"...blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." - John 20:29


Daywalker. 

Thank you all for your input. 

As I gather from Marlene's posts the Holy Spirit works on people in different ways, as we all have different egos and different things about us which need correcting. It's odd because you act as if whenever a sin is revealed to you you feel ashamed. I am fully aware that I am a sinner, but I don't feel ashamed, nor do I feel proud. I am by nature quite a shameless person so I find it hard to comprehend what it is to other people... but if you're okay with it and you feel it leads to improvement then I have no quarrel. It's even made me think. Perhaps, with certain people, the Holy Spirit can be so desperate to change them that they could give them a vision of hell? That seems very extreme, but it could happen I guess.

@ Daywalker: Human lust for horror sickens me, but where are these testimonies? Even if I had just ONE it would make the difference.

It's funny. I have never had any experience of the Spirit. Or at least no obvious experience. I have ASD which gives me a very hightened sense of self and ego, so it's no wonder. However, I would never ever deny it. That's not out of fear, it's out of the evidence I see. It's like a knowledge of something I just haven't experienced. We can't prove God or Jesus but I would never lose faith in the Spirit. If only it knew me.

- Ryan

[24 Grams]

Hi all.

God will not prove to the world that He exists. Instead the world will come into the knowledge of the truth.

Proof suggests there is doubt, but of course we know....There is no doubt.

As for the original question from Rysta. Probably not.

Because the people who make the testimonies  are either decieved or liars in the first place.

[daywalker]

Hi all.

God will not prove to the world that He exists. Instead the world will come into the knowledge of the truth.

Proof suggests there is doubt, but of course we know....There is no doubt.

As for the original question from Rysta. Probably not.

Because the people who make the testimonies  are either decieved or liars in the first place.

Correction: Faith suggests there is doubt... [faith is believing in something WITHOUT Proof...]. Proof means there's no doubt, because with Proof it becomes FACT.


God Bless,

Daywalker. 

[24 Grams]

True. Sorry, but I meant to ask for proof suggests that you have doubt...Therefore asking for proof of something i.e. having to physically see it means that you don't believe or believe to lesser degree (if that is even possible).

Where as if you have Faith then you have no doubt, therefore not having to ask for proof in the first place...Because you already have proof...seeing it (the proof) in other means. Namely, Spiritually.

What I meant by this is that God is already proving to us His doings.... and we all know that God does not change...therefore God isn't going to just "appear" to  non-believers. He is going to do it the way He as always done it because that is the only way.

Thanks, it was a mistake what posted previously...