The secular history of The Fall and its certain sexual inconsistence...

[TheRysta]

Hello BT forums, Ryan here.

I am reading an extremely interesting book at the moment entitled "The Fall: The Insanity of The Ego in Human History and The Dawning of A New Era" by an author called Steve Taylor. I would recommend it, but I think a nutshell or a review is really all one needs to read as it does seem to get awfully repetitive. I'll break this down in a nutshell with relevance to what I want to talk about:

The thesis goes as such: around 6,000 years ago (eerily echoing the proposed life of Adam and Eve) there was a large environmental shift, originally brought about by the halting of the retreat of glaciers, which caused rainfall to cease in parts of the world like Northern Africa and Asia. They dried out to become the Sahara Desert, the Steppes and Arabia. The people who lived there were forced to migrate out. This caused a sharpened sense of self and ego among the area's inhabitants. The reasons are too many and too complex to get into; and they were largely the result of cultural evolution. Taylor proposed this lead to (among other things):

War
Patriarchy
Child oppression
Oppression of women
Inequality
Psychological discord
Taboo attitude to sex and the body
Sin (or sense of it)
Superstitious or personalised concepts of God/s

But most importantly, SELFISHNESS.

Most of the world's population are descended from either Indo-European or Semitic peoples who conquered the world shortly after (there is plenty of archaeological evidence for this). However, there are still pockets of 'unfallen' people around the world, not affected by these migrants. Of course, if you're a Young-Earther you deny these people's very existence, because their psychological differences can only be explained by pre-dating 4,000BC.

Now, there are key differences in their society which I want to illustrate in reference to sin. I know my intro's been a little too long, but it was necessary. I'll use the 'seven deadly sins'. I don't care if it's a Catholicisation, it just makes it simpler. This is a generalisation of matrist, unfallen cultures around the world (when I signify thumbs up or thumbs down I mean it in relevance to what would be regarded as 'righteous' and endorsable by Jesus):

These are majority generalisations, by the way.

Pride: Members of the society deemed too boastful are immediately frowned upon, and all group members are able to contribute in decision making (thumbs up!).

Sloth: All members of the society see themselves as working for the group and split labour fairly, as well as between men and women (thumbs up!).

Gluttony: Food is divided equally despite who put the most effort in (thumbs up!).

Greed: Members of the society are practically forced and compelled to share possessions between each other and there is a strict taboo and unlawfulness for accumulating land and possessions. Anyone who does so is victimised (thumbs up!).

Envy: The fact that there is no desire for the accumulation of wealth or possessions suggest that these societies do not suffer from the same psychological discord as we do with regards to greed and envy (thumbs up!).

Wrath: War is practically unknown to such societies, and whenever there are internal or external conflicts actual fighting is always avoided if necessary. Sometimes people perform rituals to vent anger out rather than harming each other (thumbs up!).

So there we have it! It looks as if we have a peaceful, innocent, harmonious and law-abiding society. Oh wait, until we come to...

Lust: Fornication is glorified. Both men and women are encouraged to have multiple sexual partners before marriage and even during marriage practices such as 'spouse-swapping' and adultery are all practiced and accepted. It is taken for granted that even when married the man cannot fully satisfy the woman or vice versa so both are permitted to have sex with other members of the group (thumbs way, way down...).

Notice the problem here?

Jesus was clearly very much against adultery and even said that if you look at a woman in lust then you've committed it! He even says that divorce is adultery too (this is also permittable in unfallen societies, by the way).

To me, this says something really significant. I do not believe that God sets a purposeless commandment. To me, it is evident that fornication and adultery are strictly forbidden to prevent conflict, as well as unhealthy tenancies to lust after carnal desires. Also, and I for one find this a very important issue, to stop unwanted pregnancies and babies being born out of wedlock. You see, it is as clear as day! However, it appears that in these societies such things cause absolutely negligible conflict and in some cases are actually used to reduce tension among people!

Now I don't distrust Jesus for a second. I am sure that this commandment was important to us as Semites and Indo-Europeans, I am well aware. But it is as if it is not universal... it's as if it just doesn't need to be a sin for these people. Whenever missionaries have tried to introduce celibacy it has had disastrous consequences and modern day organisations are even getting some tribes to relearn their old ways!

Perhaps, and this is only a theory, please entertain it... we are truly and utterly different, and God's commandments are relative to each people and society?

Discuss! This doesn't just need to be about the contradiction I spotted, but about this idea in general. That the sharpened sense of ego we possess is not universal throughout the whole world. This sharpened ego is of course... the beast!

[kenny]

Where did you find this in Rays teachings?

I would like the link.

Distrust Jesus?

What Commandment are you referring to, #9-10 thou shall not Covet?

Kenny

[NoviceBeliever]

Ryan:

The Bushman of Africa have a very similar philosophy.  They unfortunately, have not had god open their eyes and ears to HIS way.  GOD will rectify this. Continue to study Ray's teachings and the scriptures. They will lead you on the right path. NB

[Dave in Tenn]

You lost me with 'righteous and endorsable by Jesus'.  We already know the results of the Lord's frequent 'searches' for righteousness in humanity.  There isn't any.  Conclusion:  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  All are carnal, and carnal because we/they were created carnal.  Just because a culture is simple and one might imagine it being 'simpler' to live in does not mean that it has escaped being human any more than 'good' people in more complex and 'evil' cultures have escaped their flesh.

We don't have to scour the earth for pockets of 'unfallen' cultures to find people who are 'better' by standards of man's righteousness than others.  We all know people who live good lives (have a form of godliness) by following the rules of their society and a higher calling of compassion or moral genius of some sort.  If we take your example of Pride: Members of the society deemed too boastful are immediately frowned upon, and all group members are able to contribute in decision making (thumbs up!). we find simply law, sin, and judgement.  That doesn't sound 'unfallen' to me.           

[musicman]

Ryan:

The Bushman of Africa have a very similar philosophy.  They unfortunately, have not had god open their eyes and ears to HIS way.

But they have the gods.  Didn't ya'll see the movie "The Gods must be crazy"?  Such a peaceful community.  Only kill what they need for food.  Respected the land and each other.  Until some nitwit tosses a soda bottle out of a plane.  Excuse me, one of the gods flying over tossed an evil device down to make everyone envious and violent (did you see those little Bushmen fighting over it and hitting each other with it?)  So there we see how much evil is within them Bushmen.  Good thing the gods didn't throw down a loaded AK47.

[gmik]

I loved that movie

when I had my DNA swabbed for genealogy I got back a brochure that said 40,000 years ago my ancestors came from Middle Eastern Europe.  I felt I had been scammed for 70 bucks!!

Early on in my walk, I assured myself the Pygmies in Africa wouldn't be held accountable or judged as I would be.  I left that belief even before I found B-T-  Step back and take a look at the WHOLE picture (say from the Universe)....All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God--no exceptions.

Interesting thread.

[daywalker]

Hello Ryan,

Thanks for the review. Now I know another book which I have no desire to read.  Please don't take that personally, it's just this book sounds very poor. But in response I'll say this: just because a 'sin' has little affect on a person or society, doesn't mean it's no longer a sin. A sin is not merely a sin because God said so... nor is it a sin only because it has a negative affect on society; it's a sin because it is against God's Nature, and that's what our purpose is to be... Like God... In His Image.

Ryan: "Discuss!"

Also, just a little friendly advice... be careful not to try to start debates here. There's a reason why we don't; they only lead down a bad road and cause divisions. Our goal here is unity, not division.


Welp, Have a Good One!

Daywalker