> Off Topic Discussions
posting in orthodox forums
meefsgirl:
--- Quote from: Roy Martin on June 29, 2009, 08:53:41 AM ---meefsgirl, I understand your concern, but we need to remember that few are chosen.
If many knew the truth, and were teaching it on many websites with many believers, then it would be many chosen and not a few.
I don't know of anyone alive other than Ray that is teaching this truth.
--- End quote ---
I know of at least one other on the internet who teaches the truth like Ray. I do believe Ray teaches very clearly and precisely and is easy to read and understand. And that is sooo good. And I do believe he is anointed to teach. Yes, I agree that few are chosen, but we don't know the numbers.
--- Quote ---I have wondered about this many times. Who will be the next teacher when Ray is gone? Will that be the end of a human teacher?
Ray makes it clear that he doesn't know it all, and that he is human just like all of us, learning and growing in Spirit. He is just a man that has had his eyes opened more than ours, and has been chosen to teach.
I have great respect for Ray, but place him not on a pedestal. That isnt where he wants to be.
If all the preachers were teaching the truth, how could there be a few chosen?
If one leaves this truth behind then their eyes have not been opened.
I do believe that it is the Spirit that teaches us, and That should be our main source of understanding and learning, but God works through people and Ray and us are being worked and used by God. Of this I have no doubt.
--- End quote ---
I am quite sure that there are other teachers God is raising up. Ray is not alone. And as I said to another, I didn't say you 'do' put Ray on a pedestal... it just seems that way. You all need to see it from a newbie point of view.
You said above that if ones leaves this truth behind then their eyes have not been opened. Did you mean if one goes back?... or if one goes forward?... I believe there is more truth to learn and we should go forward. I also have a sense that much of these teachings are laying a foundation for greater truth to come. Ray may bring them, or maybe you might....:)
Blessings... meefsgirl
Samson:
--- Quote from: lferretj on June 28, 2009, 04:54:14 PM ---I have found that when talking to others about Universalism, even when they say they would like to know more about it, really they don't. They have too many biasis and can't see what your talking about or rather don't want to see your point of view. Just the other day I was talking to my dad because he expressed interest and wanted to know what I was studying. We talked but eventually when we disagreed, and I tried to say it another way he eventually just said I needed to pray more and walked off. I was kinda shocked because he asked me and then didn't actually want to hear what I said. As for posting on Orthodox Christian forums I havn't had any experience. I was talking with my old pastor but like you said we hit a brick wall. Mostly because of context and translation issues. I changed my approach with my old pastor--now I just ask questions from the Orthodox Christian POV and see how they answer. Then watch how they explain away so many scriptures or just say we can't know the answer we just need faith and believe that everything will be all right. It only affirms the Ultimate Reconcilliation view in my mind, that and I am really curious about their answers since their are so many views on such topics as the age of accountability, trinity, tithing, etc, etc, etc. And each church validates it in their mind with a scripture and all think they are correct. Their really is no use arguing with them as you've found out and as Ray has attested to in his replies to countless e-mails. As for the need to convince others that we are right I don't believe that is the goal of most who try to share. I would have to say that we want to share not to boost our ego in being right but sincerely wanting to help the individual find the truth and experience the freedom it brings. But like my dad still says "you can't help anyone who doesn't want to be helped."
lferretj
--- End quote ---
Hello Everyone,
I quoted the above, only because there are some points that I can identify with. Most of us know that
we should only share our faith and the hope that's in us in harmony with what's stated at 1Peter.3:15. Yet, even in
cases where someone asks us a question, they may not really like the answer we give them and start to turn this into
a debate, at this point, it's preferable to desist from continuing the discussion. As Ray has stated: " He who is convinced against their Will, is of the same opinion Still."
My Daughter used to ask questions to the affect, " Why do you believe such & such " and as soon as
I begin to provide the answer, she gets irritated and immediately atempts to contradict me, then proceeds to say something like: " You believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe." I usually respond by saying: What's the sense of asking me a question, if you won't let me answer." So, my point is, even in cases where someone seems to
sincerely want an answer to a question, they sincerely don't want or care to hear your true answer.
A good example of the futility of debating an Orthodox Christian, especially one deeply rooted in it, is
the case involving Carrie Bradshaw, mainly because Jaccobsladder, Hell No and Babylon has Fallen(Daywalker) did an
excellent job explaining in full detail with Ray's material, the Scriptures and many examples to prove our stand on
different issues and She's still of the same opinion and in this case, this was a Universalist Type Hub, not an Orthodox
one.
I have a situation that involves me, where a workmate who already knows that I believe in the
Universal Reconcilition of All and claimed they even toyed with idea, they fully know my stand and had left it at
that, yet recently a relative of their's had died, in which this person attended their funeral and since this person was
an Atheist that died, the person I work with commented making reference to Hebrews. 10:31(Fearfull thing falling into
the hands of the living God), applying it to Non-Believers, Now keep in mind that he already knew my stance that
everyone eventually will be saved, although only a Chosen few in this Age. He waited for me to respond and I didn't,
I changed the subject and announced I was leaving to do something(work related), he had a smiley smirk on his
face and said, see you later. So, with the above in mind, What was his point in telling me something that he should
have already known what my answer would be. Was it to rile me up, debate or did he completely forget my stance
on these matters. Well, I didn't put myself in that position to find out and probably saved myself some unnecessary
grief.
So, with all of this in mind, whether debating with family members, Co-workers, At Orthodox Forums, Universalist You-Tube Video clips or even at our BT Forum, it's an exercise in futility because it doesn't do God
any good, the person you debate with any good and I know it doesn't do me any good. It took me many years
to finally practice this principle, to remain silent.
Kind Regards, Samson.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: meefsgirl on June 29, 2009, 08:06:39 AM ---Hmmm.. as a newbie here I'm starting to get a bit concerned with how much you all seem to put Ray on a pedestal. Do you all believe that Ray has ALL THE TRUTH? If so, then I think I'll bow out because I don't believe anyone has all the truth and I am way past looking to 'leaders' to do it all for me. That was left behind when I left the orthodox church.
--- End quote ---
You are not the first nor will you be the last to make this statement...I don't know why so many assume this and feel they need to announce to all that 'they will not follow any man'.
I have yet to see any who make these haughty statements provide one example of someone 'following one man'.
From 'Questions and Truth' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html):
One thing that I see posted allot is the statement that nobody knows all the truths of God. With this I agree, but what about the truths they do know? The truth is the truth and we can see by all the denominations and religions that the majority has not a clue what the truth actually is. How much truth did Paul have? John?, did some of the scripture they brought out have only some truth?
I am not comparing Ray to Paul or John, and Ray will tell you he doesn't know all there is about scripture, but the parts that he writes he believes to be truth, inspired by God as taught by men such as Paul and John etc. Ray takes his search for the truth seriously and that is why he uses so much scripture and gives very little opinion. If you study Ray's writing and think he is in error then by all means email him or ask the question here. Unlike some would have you believe, questioning Ray's articles is allowed here. It is just the debating of the topic that is not allowed. And bringing your own teaching to a topic is not either, as we explain in the forum rules. (The mods don't have the time or talent to determine if your opinion is right or wrong)
The purpose of the forum is to fellowship in Christ using Ray's teachings as just that: a teaching tool. If some hold Ray in a higher regard than others, what is that to anyone? I thought this thread was about NOT debating about that which is carnal, whether on this forum or another.
Let us walk and be mindful of that which is of the spirit.
Thanks,
Marques
meefsgirl:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on June 29, 2009, 09:28:50 AM ---
--- Quote from: meefsgirl on June 29, 2009, 08:06:39 AM ---Hmmm.. as a newbie here I'm starting to get a bit concerned with how much you all seem to put Ray on a pedestal. Do you all believe that Ray has ALL THE TRUTH? If so, then I think I'll bow out because I don't believe anyone has all the truth and I am way past looking to 'leaders' to do it all for me. That was left behind when I left the orthodox church.
--- End quote ---
You are not the first nor will you be the last to make this statement...I don't know why so many assume this and feel they need to announce to all that 'they will not follow any man'.
I have yet to see any who make these haughty statements provide one example of someone 'following one man'.
From 'Questions and Truth' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html):
One thing that I see posted allot is the statement that nobody knows all the truths of God. With this I agree, but what about the truths they do know? The truth is the truth and we can see by all the denominations and religions that the majority has not a clue what the truth actually is. How much truth did Paul have? John?, did some of the scripture they brought out have only some truth?
I am not comparing Ray to Paul or John, and Ray will tell you he doesn't know all there is about scripture, but the parts that he writes he believes to be truth, inspired by God as taught by men such as Paul and John etc. Ray takes his search for the truth seriously and that is why he uses so much scripture and gives very little opinion. If you study Ray's writing and think he is in error then by all means email him or ask the question here. Unlike some would have you believe, questioning Ray's articles is allowed here. It is just the debating of the topic that is not allowed. And bringing your own teaching to a topic is not either, as we explain in the forum rules. (The mods don't have the time or talent to determine if your opinion is right or wrong)
The purpose of the forum is to fellowship in Christ using Ray's teachings as just that: a teaching tool. If some hold Ray in a higher regard than others, what is that to anyone? I thought this thread was about NOT debating about that which is carnal, whether on this forum or another.
Let us walk and be mindful of that which is of the spirit.
Thanks,
Marques
--- End quote ---
Yes, let us walk in the truth of God's Word and Spirit and not disagree anymore...
rockrdude:
> Actually I made a point to say that it 'seems' that people here put Ray on a pedestal to avoid saying they do.
meefsgirl,
I have seen some evidence of this here on the forum, too. The end result is that there will always be those who find truth and then elevate the presenters of the truth and place them on a very high pedestal. That is the nature of fleshly man, and only Jesus has so far been able to completely conquer the flesh.
The truth is still truth, and there is much of it here, but some will follow the man and others will follow the truth that is presented.
I was actually discussing this with someone off-site recently, and my concern was that at times I have read the words "all you need is your Bible and Ray's papers." on the forum. I understand where the people who write stuff like this are coming from, but the Bible does say that we have no need that any man teach us for the Holy Spirit will be our teacher.
Obviously the Spirit of God can and often does use Ray, and his papers, but Ray is not to be followed. With all teachers, Ray included, the Bible commands us to 'see if these things be so'.
When I frequent other sites, I often find some wonderful truths! I also find many teachings that simply do not agree with the Word of God, often still full of the spirit of the Babylonian institutional church system. God does command His children to "Come out of her, My people", so I do keep my distance from the teachings of the world. Since light and darkness / truth and deception do not mix, I do not remain on such sites.
There are other EXCELLENT sites that present many of the same things Ray teaches. Some present them better than others, and Ray is not the exclusive presenter of most of these things. All that said, in my journey, this is still the best place I have found to study God's Word and interact with other like-minded believers. You will, of course, find many here who have a deep love for the things Ray teaches. I believe it is why this forum was created to being with.
For me, I just love Ray's style and method of presenting these truths. Many of the same things had been taught to me by the Spirit when I had no fellowship at all, and I felt like I was a big giant kook for believing such things. When I stumbled into Ray's teachings, it was a breath of fresh air for me. I realized I was not alone and that I really was hearing and learning from God. It was this that God used to bring me here, and since then the Spirit of God has taught me many things from other people here. He still uses some from other sites to teach me things as well.
No matter what is presented, always check to 'see if these things be so'.
I hope you'll stick around. This is a good bunch of people. Yes.. some have Ray on a pedestal. Most do not.. thankfully. :D
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