Submitting to authority

[CrossoverManiac]

According to the Scripture, we should admit to authority.  Does that mean the American Revolution was wrong?  Or that the people of Germany should not rebel against Hitler during WWII?

[Dave in Tenn]

What scripture are you basing the assumption "we should submit to authority" on?

[Roy Martin]

(Romans 13) 
( 1 Peter 2; 13)
I have wanted to talk about this topic. I'm glad it was brought up.

Roy

[arion]

FWIW does anyone who says they are an authority over you indeed an authority you must submit to?  I.E. with the American Revolution the colonists left England because they felt they could no longer submit to the King and they came to America.  The King of England presumed to have authority over here as well yet He was the King of England.

With government in the U.S. were supposed to have a limited government with limited powers.  Our leaders receive their authority upon taking an oath to uphold the constitution.  Whey they go beyond the constitution and take upon themselves authority they don't lawfully have then are they truly an authority over you telling you what to do when they have violated the document that gave them the authority in the first place?  If our form of government was a theocracy then we would have to do what the King of the U.S. said but that's not the case.  That is why America truly was a jewel in the world because our form of government was limited and we were a self governing people.

I suppose we can take this to church leadership as well.  Look how many of the babalonian church leaders take upon themselves authority that God has never given them.....especially if one was in the more regimented church such as Catholicism.  Much to think about with these issues. 

Heb 13:17  Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

IN our case here that would be Ray.  I would have no problem at all with following what he teaches because I know he is teaching the truth and I discern his heart through the teachings.

Then we have....

1Pe 2:13-14  Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

But again here in the U.S. as I mentioned earlier our form of government provides for very limited powers to our leaders and when they go way beyond the laws that give them the power then do we still have to submit to it?

And then to consider.....

Mar 10:42-43  But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister

This would be a great area for a teaching.  Perhaps Ray has taught on some of these things before that I'm not aware of.

[mharrell08]

(Romans 13) 
( 1 Peter 2; 13)
I have wanted to talk about this topic. I'm glad it was brought up.

Roy

2 quick points on these two scriptures:

1. Look up in a concordance the Greek word translated to 'ordinance' in 1 Pet 2:13.

2. In Romans 13, Paul refers to this same 'higher power' as a 'minister of God' in verse 4, twice.


But really, it takes a mature spiritual mind, to discern when it is proper to obey the laws & customs of the land but also when to be upheld to our higher, spiritual law in Christ. Living for Christ should be first in our lives and as long as the laws in our country do not directly oppose them, there should be no problem. If an issue arises, look to Christ and His apostles as an example of living a Godly life in a perverse society.

Hope this helps,

Marques

[Marky Mark]

I think that the only true authority that man has is of God and what His plan and purpose is for mankind.Now if we look at this from the viewpoint that all is of God and that only his will, will be done, then the Spiritual ramifications can come to blossom.  The Father puts who He wants in control of worldly matters. As He reveals His Truths to His people then they (we) can begin to fully appreciate why there needs to be a authoritative order,for God is the author of order and not confusion.The whole of creation is under Gods authority,we can not usurp what Fathers plans and intentions are,whether we agree with them or not.He is the potter and we are the clay.That is what real authority is all about.


Peace...Mark 

[Kat]

I wanted to post this part of the January 2008 Bible Study on Church Government.

http://bible-truths.com/audio/Church Government Pt_1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Church Government Pt_2.mp3.  

The transcript is not complete, so this is just a part from the audio.

CHURCH GOVERNMENT:  

The shortest subject in the Bible and you will see what I say that in a minute.  

Do you "Obey them that have the rule over you?"

Denny sent me this article from the Wall Street Journal that I guess he got off the forum.  The subject was on The Backlash Against Tithing.  I took this one little excerpt from this one guy, when he objected to his church's instructions to tithe, Kirk C. took it up with the church leaders... It explains that he didn't think that it was Scriptural.  Well they sent back a letter to him and the Pastor in the letter closed with this verse from Hebrews 13.

Heb 13:17  Obey your leaders and submit to them: for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

This is the part I wanted to bring out, "Obey your leaders."  This is what the minister was telling him, 'you know what the Scriptures say don't you Kirk C.  The Scriptures say obey your leaders and submit to them.' Meaning that he, as a pastor or teacher of the gospel, he had authority over him and they needed to obey and submit to that authority.  

In Hebrews 13:7 it says, "Remember them which have the rule over you..."

Then in Hebrews 13:24  "Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you."

So just how many of you obey those that have the rule over you?  That's what the King James says, but that is not what the Scriptures say.  It's not totally wrong, but it is somewhat wrong and you get a wrong feeling.  I don't know what translation this man was quoting from "Obey your leaders and submit to them" (NASB).  We do find three time in the thirteenth chapter of Hebrews this phrase, "remember - obey, them that have the rule over you."  Later I am going to show you a better translation of those Scriptures.

All major churches and religions have a rule, they have a government, they have a hierarchy.  Catholics: elders, deacons and lower level it's the Nights of Columbus and so on, which are not really ordained priests per say.  Then they have priests, bishops, archbishops, cardinals, and the pope, that's the hierarchy.  Those people have real authority in the Catholic church.  

Now on the negative side, recently I think it was in the range of $65 million that the church pay out as kind of hush money for damages to those people in the Boston area who were molested by this hierarchy of priests and so on.  By what authority can they take poor peoples, the widow's mite, money?  $65 million worth of those mites and pay it to people that have been sexually molested by the priests.  By what authority can they do that?  Well by the authority of the church.  You owe the church money, they take your money and they do with it what they will.  If it requires blackmail money, they'll pay blackmail money.  That's real authority you see.

Back in the roaring twenties, I guess that was the period where Al Capone and "Pretty Boy" Floyd and all these people were operating.  They would require the merchants in the cities, Chicago and New York and so on to pay them protection money.  If you were a merchant and you didn't pay them protection money... and they would protect you too, it isn't that they just stole your money, if you paid them money they would protect you.  They would look out for you, so that hoodlums didn't rob your store.  There was a certain amount that they would do.  By what authority could they make you pay them money or not only would they not protect you, but they themselves might burn down your business?  You see that's real authority, that's fear.  Those people didn't want to give them that money, they feared the consequences.  We can see immediately that is evil.  Can't we see that is criminal?  

Isn't this exactly what the governments of churches and religions do?  Of course it is.  It's all based on fear.  The doctrines are based on fear and giving them the money is based on fear, because if you don't then they'll get you with the doctrines, you see.  If you don't pay your tithes you're robbing from God and you will go to hell, I mean that's as simple as it is. People say, 'we shouldn't come to Christ or be Christians out of fear.'  Listen I can't tell go how many leaders, that sit there on that ivory and gold gilded stage of TBN and have personally given testimonies that the first and major reason that they accepted Christ or became a Christian was FEAR OF GOING TO HELL.  I've heard it with my own ears numerous times.  

All major churches and denominations have a church government and they usually have a regional, national and/or international headquarters (does that word ring a bell, 'headquarters'... and 'the work').  From that headquarters is issued the government of that denomination.  They have the power the hire and fire, to dis-fellowship you and embarrass you in the multitude of the congregation and/or assign you to hell.  They exercise or at least they think they have that power.  

The independents that don't have a worldwide church or congregations, but just have their own personal ministry, they are worse yet.  When you take people like Paul Crouch... there is not a Paul Crouch church I don't think, where you go a listen to Paul Crouch preach every Sunday.  Benny Hinn has a church, but I don't think he pastors it though.  Then you have some that do pastor a church like John Hagee and Joel Olsteen and Creflo Dollar has a congregation and some of those.  Then you have others like Joyce Mires, I don't know if she has a congregation that she pastors every Sunday or not.  But most of those, their big thing is television, their television ministry where they go and rent these convention centers.  Swagger is back and Jim Baker is back.  How do they show their authority?

We talk about authority and government, hierarchy and all of these things, power, rulership, you know "Obey them that have the rule over you" (Heb. 13:17).  The one thing that these people want is your money.  They want your money.  You listen to Creflo Dollar and Joyce Mires and Paula White, they want your money.  They all want you to be prayer partners, they call them warriors and partners and all of that, in other words they want your money.  Now anybody that can control your money is exercising great authority over you.  Anybody who can claim your money... now here is the thing, they don't say give me your money, I mean they're not that stupid, people would see through them.  They say give God your money and here is where to send it.  Can you see that?

If you are watching Paula White and you want to obey all this... and it's on every program, it's nonstop.  That girl's got dollar signs just flipping in her eyes, that woman is obsessed with worldlyism and materialism; money, clothes, jewelry, homes, jet, power, the woman is just absolutely possessed of it.  So she teaches all these every morning of every day, all these rules and regulations and building the foundation.  Last year it was 07 and that's the year of completion, 'this year God is going to complete His blessings on you.'  Well what do you do in 08 then?  'Oh 08 is the number of resurrection, so this is the year you are going to be resurrected into the new... and 09 is when some other thing.'  It's like an used car salesmen.  

Any car salesman new or used worth their salt on the face of the earth can give you a reason why this day, today, not tomorrow, but today is the best time to buy a car at their dealership.  Here is the reason why and if they don't have reasons they make them up.  They make them up... we have too many cars and we have to reduce them and get rid of the inventory... It's a July sale... it a manager's sale, it's some kind of a sale.  There is always a reason why, today.  

So these ministers will never run out of ammunition.  Not only can they tell you why 08 is the year that you are suppose to do all this, but they can tell you on Tuesday why Tuesday is the day of the month of the year that you were suppose to do this.  It's all nonsense, just unbelievable nonsense.  But they quote Scriptures from the Bible and stuff and low and behold... two (2) things; either 1) greed sets in or 2) fear.  Sometimes they use both, fear and greed.

People are told if they don't tithe they are robbing God and if you rob God you are a thief and if you are a thief you will go to hell.  But they are also told if you do tithe it will open up the windows of heaven and pour you out all these material blessings, cars, money, diamonds, furs, whatever.  So it's greed and fear and they all use it and they use it well.  Those that use it the best, they make the most.

The one that gets me is... you give it to God, show God.  How do you do that?  Well you give it to them.  They put themselves in the place of God!  When you give to Paula White you are giving to god, what does that tell you?  Come on people wake up.  
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I just thought this would be helpful right now for this thread,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ninny]

We are told we "ought to obey God rather than man"! Thanks Kat! I truly enjoyed listening to that study! I think I listened to it twice! Maybe I'll go for a third time!
Kathy

[ez2u]

Its not only money but your life.  Listen when I was a young woman a minister called me into his office I was living in a ministry home and said the vast congregation gives money but the prizes position was workers  They want your life.  Its not just about giving your money but power to control your LIFE.  Greed hold no barrier. Lust either. and we all are subject to it, its the Adamic nature.  A few months ago I fell prey to a scheme, someone played on my greed.  I didn't know until later what happen!  These element are very subtle.  So who is greedy in the church the pastor?  well  the person who hear the get rich quick scheme? I loved Marlene post  on another subject because to me it says" what is the condition of our hearts and/or minds?  (paraphrased)  My thinking i is who are you working for?  who are you giving your life too.  That's the real value. peggy

[24 Grams]

Hi all.

I'm pretty sure Rom. 13 is referring to Governemnt authority only (perhaps the verses as well?).

Pay your taxes, don't rob or murder...or you will go to jail. God put these laws into men's hearts and so it is true that we should not do niether of these things. People of power such as Hitler is another case, for example it says:

"For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you...." (Rom. 13:3)

For these such leaders what they think is right is actually wrong so they must be exempt.