Fear or Reverence; does it Matter?.

[aqrinc]

The comment in maroon below, from TheRysta on 6-24-09 is prompting me to post some of my understanding. The subject has weighed heavily on me for a while, i understand the fearful and timid will all have their part in the LOF. So why is it that many; not all Bible translations use the (Fear) word instead of the more correct translation (Reverence), in these very important verses.

This is not a completed study; but a work in progress i would like to share, please feel free to comment or add to the discussion.

Reverence: rev·er·ence (rvr-ns)

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reverence

1. A feeling of profound awe and respect and often love; veneration. See Synonyms at honor.
2. An act showing respect, especially a bow or curtsy.
3. The state of being revered.
4. Reverence Used as a form of address for certain members of the Christian clergy: Your Reverence. (Definetely not Scriptural)

tr.v. rev·er·enced, rev·er·enc·ing, rev·er·enc·es
To consider or treat with profound awe and respect; venerate.

from: TheRysta
I don't know what the word 'reverence' actually means but I assume that you mean that I should be humble to God and such. Is this humble simply to accept that he always knows best and not to get into a row about it, or is this humble all the way to the extent that you can't treat prayer like conversation.

I have been doing a word study of the uses of the words (fear & Reverence) in the OT & NT. It appears again that the translators did a deliberate hatchet job on use of this word to change our understanding of GOD And HIS Relationship with us (humanity)

The NT has 78 occurrences of use of the word (fear), so far i have found a definite bias in the OT Bible, still working on the NT.

Many places in the OT where the word (fear H3372) is used the better word is actually (Reverence Reverent or Revere). In the old testament (KJV+) there are 307 verses where the word (fear) is used.

At least 70% or more of the time it is (fear H3372, H3373 or H3374), in the majority of cases (Revere or Reverence or Reverent) is a much better word than fear to get the correct meaning.

(GNB) has 22 uses of the word Reverence in place of Fear. I pulled 7 verses and matched them with 7 verses from (CLV), bold are mine for emphasis.


Job 28:28 (GNB)
God said to us humans, "To be wise, you must have reverence for the Lord. To understand, you must turn from evil."

Job 28:28 (CLV)
Job 28:28 And He said to mankind, Behold, the fear of Yahweh, it is wisdom, And to withdraw from evil is understanding.

2Ch 19:9 (GNB)
He gave them the following instructions: "You must perform your duties in reverence for the LORD, faithfully obeying him in everything you do.

2Ch 19:9 (CLV)
and he lays a charge upon them, saying, `Thus do you do in the fear of Yahweh, in faithfulness, and with a perfect heart,

Psa 5:7 (GNB)
But because of your great love I can come into your house; I can worship in your holy Temple and bow down to you in reverence.

Psa 5:7 (CLV)
As for me, in the vastness of Your benignity I shall enter Your House; I shall worship toward Your holy Temple in devout fear of You.


Pro 1:7 (GNB)  
To have knowledge, you must first have reverence for the LORD. Stupid people have no respect for wisdom and refuse to learn.

Pro 1:7 (CLV)
The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge; The foolish despise wisdom and discipline.

Pro 15:33 (GNB)
Reverence for the LORD is an education in itself. You must be humble before you can ever receive honors.

Pro 15:33 (CLV)
The fear of Yahweh is the discipline of wisdom, And before glory goes humility."

Isa 33:6 (GNB)
and give stability to the nation. He always protects his people and gives them wisdom and knowledge. Their greatest treasure is their reverence for the LORD.

Isa 33:6 (CLV)
It comes to be the faithfulness of your eras. The safeguard of salvation is wisdom and knowledge. The fear of Yahweh, it is its treasure."

Zep 3:7 (GNB)
I thought that then my people would have reverence for me and accept my discipline, that they would never forget the lesson I taught them. But soon they were behaving as badly as ever.

Zep 3:7 (CLV)
I say, Yea, you shall fear Me; you shall take discipline. And all which I have visited upon her is not being cut off from her eyes. Being prepared, they rose early; they ruined all their practices."

H3372
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
A primitive root; to fear; morally to revere; causatively to frighten: - affright, be (make) afraid, dread (-ful), (put in) fear (-ful, -fully, -ing). (be had in) reverence (-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).

H3373
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
From H3372; fearing; morally reverent: - afraid, fear (-ful).

H3374
יראה
yir'âh
yir-aw'
Feminine of H3373; fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence: -  X dreadful, X exceedingly, fear (-fulness).

Lev 19:30  
Ye shall keepH8104 (H853) my sabbaths,H7676 and (reverence H3372) my sanctuary:H4720 IH589 am the LORD.H3068

Lev 26:2  
Ye shall keepH8104 (H853) my sabbaths,H7676 and (reverence H3372) my sanctuary:H4720 IH589 am the LORD.H3068

Est 3:5  
And when HamanH2001 sawH7200 thatH3588 MordecaiH4782 bowedH3766 not,H369 nor did him (reverence, H7812) then was HamanH2001 fullH4390 of wrath.H2534

Psa 89:7  
GodH410 is greatlyH7227 to be fearedH6206 in the assemblyH5475 of the saints,H6918 and to be had in (reverence H3372) ofH5921 allH3605 them that are aboutH5439 him.

H6343
פּחד
pachad
pakh'-ad
From H6342; a (sudden) alarm (properly the object feared, by implication the feeling): - dread (-ful), fear, (thing) great [fear, -ly feared], terror.


H367
אמה     אימה
'êymâh  'êmâh
ay-maw', ay-maw'
From the same as H366; fright; concretely an idol (as a bugbear): - dread. fear, horror, idol, terrible, terror.

H2342
חיל    חוּל
chûl  chîyl
khool, kheel
A primitive root; properly to twist or whirl (in a circular or spiral manner), that is, (specifically) to dance, to writhe in pain (especially of parturition) or fear; figuratively to wait, to pervert: - bear, (make to) bring forth, (make to) calve, dance, drive away, fall grievously (with pain), fear, form, great, grieve, (be) grievous, hope, look, make, be in pain, be much (sore) pained, rest, shake, shapen, (be) sorrow (-ful), stay, tarry, travail (with pain), tremble, trust, wait carefully (patiently), be wounded.

H6206
ערץ
‛ârats
aw-rats'
A primitive root; to awe or (intransitively) to dread; hence to harass: - be affrighted (afraid, dread, feared, terrified), break, dread, fear, oppress, prevail, shake terribly.

H2844
חת
chath
khath
From H2865; concretely crushed; also afraid; abstractly terror: - broken, dismayed, dread, fear.

H4172
מורה    מרא    מורא
môrâ'  môrâ'  môrâh
mo-raw', mo-raw', mo-raw'
From H3372; fear; by implication a fearful thing or deed: - dread, (that ought to be) fear (-ed), terribleness, terror. (This is a Stretch)

H7461
רעדה    רעד
ra‛ad  re‛âdâh
rah'-ad, reh-aw-daw'
From H7460; a shudder: - fear, trembling. (Like a woman in travail)

H6342
פּחד
pâchad
paw-khad'
A primitive root; to be startled (by a sudden alarm); hence to fear in general: - be afraid, stand in awe, (be in) fear, make to shake.

H4034
מגורה
megôrâh
meg-o-raw'
Feminine of H4032; affright: - fear.

H6427
פּלּצוּת
pallâtsûth
pal-law-tsooth'
From H6426; affright: - fearfulness, horror, trembling.

H6206
ערץ
‛ârats
aw-rats'
A primitive root; to awe or (intransitively) to dread; hence to harass: - be affrighted (afraid, dread, feared, terrified), break, dread, fear, oppress, prevail, shake terribly.

H7374
רטט
reṭeṭ
reh'-tet
From an unused root meaning to tremble; terror: - fear.

H1763
דּחל
dechal
deh-khal'
(Chaldee); corresponding to H2119; to slink, that is, (by implication) to fear, or (causatively) be formidable: - make afraid, dreadful, fear, terrible.

H1481
גּוּר
gûr
goor
A primitive root; properly to turn aside from the road (for a lodging or any other purpose), that is, sojourn (as a guest); also to shrink, fear (as in a strange place); also to gather for hostility (as afraid): - abide, assemble, be afraid, dwell, fear, gather (together), inhabitant, remain, sojourn, stand in awe, (be) stranger, X surely.

george.

[Marky Mark]

Hello George.
Was wondering if this email to Ray helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,720.0.html

Dear Chris:
In the Hebrew Old Testament we have the word "fear" often translated from three words which are virutally synonymous--Strong's #3372, #3373, and #3374.

According to context it can mean the emotion of being freightened or in the positive emotion of showing reverence.

Exodus 20:20 is a good example of both: "

"And Moses said unto the people, fear [don't be freightened] not: for God is come to prove you, and that his Fear [reverence] may be before your faces, that ye sin not. "

God be with you,

Ray





Peace...Mark

[mharrell08]

Hello George,

Here is at least one example of fear that is NOT to be present in the saints:

fear [Gk. deilos]: fearful, timid

Scriptural examples:

Matt 8:25-26  His [Jesus] disciples came to Him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish. And He saith unto them, Why are ye fearful [Gk. deilos], O ye of little faith? Then He arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm.

Mark 8:39-40  He [Jesus] arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And He said unto them, Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?

Rev 21:8-9  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful [Gk. deilos], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Also, there are other Greek words translated as both fear and reverence...each one must be taken in regards to the spiritual message/intent of each scripture (with of course 2-3 spiritual witnesses & matches).

For example, the Greek word 'phobeō' is in the NT 93 times and translated as 'fear' 62 times...but only once for reverence. But look at these many example when 'phobeō' is used in a Godly way:

Acts 10:22  ...they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth [phobeō] God...

Acts 10:35  ...in every nation he that feareth [phobeō] him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him...

Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing [phobeō] God;

But these are few...most of them (including almost all in Matt, Mark, Luke, & John) are of a negative connotation.

I think fear is similar to our translations of love from the ancient Greek...there are much more ancient Greek definitions and words for 'fear' than what we are used to using in our English.

And getting back to your original subject, I think it definitely matters...similar to many the definitions of 'love' which Ray goes over a few in his study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html).

The scriptures admonish us to 'fear' (have reverence, respect) in terms of matters of honoring the Lord but also admonish us to NOT 'fear' in matters of not living by faith, not looking to God but instead ourselves, etc. Each spiritual admonition needs to be looked at in the entire message to get a proper perceptive, I believe.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[aqrinc]

Hello George.
Was wondering if this email to Ray helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,720.0.html

Dear Chris:
In the Hebrew Old Testament we have the word "fear" often translated from three words which are virtually synonymous--Strong's #3372, #3373, and #3374.

According to context it can mean the emotion of being frightened or in the positive emotion of showing reverence.

Exodus 20:20 is a good example of both: "

"And Moses said unto the people, fear [don't be freightened] not: for God is come to prove you, and that his Fear [reverence] may be before your faces, that ye sin not. "

God be with you,

Ray

Peace...Mark

And getting back to your original subject, I think it definitely matters...similar to many the definitions of 'love' which Ray goes over a few in his study (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html).

The scriptures admonish us to 'fear' (have reverence, respect) in terms of matters of honoring the Lord but also admonish us to NOT 'fear' in matters of not living by faith, not looking to God but instead ourselves, etc. Each spiritual admonition needs to be looked at in the entire message to get a proper perceptive, I believe.

Hope this helps,

Marques

Mark, Marques,

That is the very reason for my current research and study. For years i have read the Bible and wondered actually could see that many times in Scripture; fear was not the appropriate word to use in certain verses.

Just could not see it because i was always told never to question the Bible, because it is the innerrant word of GOD. Well since knowing that Bibles are translated by humans that was a big question that had to be swallowed for lack of better understanding.

We need to learn The Scriptures and question all traditions of man, whenever and wherever it it rears its Beastly head. Now These Scriptures below are making a lot more sense. The Beast is never dead until Jesus Christ Returns, we will always marvel at it rising again and again, when we buy the world and things seen.

Rev 13:3 (MKJV)
And I saw one of its heads as having been slain to death, and its deadly wound was healed. And all the earth marveled after the beast.

Rev 13:12 (MKJV)
And it exercises all the authority of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and those dwelling in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

george.

[24 Grams]

Hi all.

Nice post there george regarding the beast.

But Pro 1:7 did it for me. The explanation at the end of the verse (regarding fools) suggests it must mean reverence...

[aqrinc]

That beast (human heart and mind) would much rather we have fear, than Reverence For GOD, for whatever we fear we tend to avoid.

Eze 11:19 
I will give them a new heart and a new mind. I will take away their stubborn heart of stone and will give them an obedient heart.

Eze 36:
23  When I demonstrate to the nations the holiness of my great name---the name you disgraced among them---then they will know that I am the LORD. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken. I will use you to show the nations that I am holy.

24  I will take you from every nation and country and bring you back to your own land.

25  I will sprinkle clean water on you and make you clean from all your idols and everything else that has defiled you.

26  I will give you a new heart and a new mind. I will take away your stubborn heart of stone and give you an obedient heart.

27  I will put my spirit in you and will see to it that you follow my laws and keep all the commands I have given you.

Once that (evil heart of unbelief and the carnal mind) that is always thinking of doing evil is changed, we will really know the beginning of GOD'S LOVE for us, and Why we should Reverence HIM.

2Ti 1: 7-10 (GNB)
7  For the Spirit that God has given us does not make us timid; (fearful) instead, his Spirit fills us with power, love, and self-control.

8  Do not be ashamed, then, of witnessing for our Lord; neither be ashamed of me, a prisoner for Christ's sake. Instead, take your part in suffering for the Good News, as God gives you the strength for it.

9  He saved us and called us to be his own people, not because of what we have done, but because of his own purpose and grace. He gave us this grace by means of Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

10  but now it has been revealed to us through the coming of our Savior, Christ Jesus. He has ended the power of death and through the gospel has revealed immortal life.

george.

[24 Grams]

Hi All.

Nice. Nice. George...I shall add too. Not necessarily fear, but more so afraid.

The Spiritually naked are afraid.

"And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself."

Jesus said do not be afraid of Him.

"And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid."

and notice this also...

And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? (Matt. 14:26-31)

His doubt caused him to fear. We tend to fear things we don't trust.

and again Jesus says do not be afraid...

"While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid." (Matt. 17:5-7)

there are more verses that show being afraid because of not believing but this might be of topic. I'll post it later though.

[meee]

            George, this thread is such a help,speaking to me, as I am currently re-reading about this exact subject.
             Very timely, God inspired!
                     hugs & love,meee

[Beloved]

I think these word in one way are all the same. It is more like a two edge sword....

If you believe and have a changed heart you recognize Yaweh as your soverign and KNOW that He is totally in charge.

If your heart is rebellious in any way then you will have fear. You are truly made naked in His presence, all impurities will stand out.

In mans fallen state any encounter with the "Holy" therefore results in Fear

That is why the scriptures often have to tell the recipent of the visitation to "fear not"  At this encounter one is forced to recognizes ones inadquacies and therefore fears judgment and punishment.

The white throne will be a fearful experience for ALLl.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I used to think that it was impossible to "love" a God that one feard....now I see that Yaweh's actions are always for my Good and that He Himself is Good and I try to rest in this thought more because we all will have to have the dross removed.

beloved

[Pini56]

This Says it for me,

2Ti 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Geoff.

[aqrinc]

To make this clearer though, The Scriptures do address both Fear and Reverence. Below are three examples of why fear is very real in some cases.

2Co 12: 20-21 (ASV)
20  For I fear, lest by any means, when I come, I should find you not such as I would, and should myself be found of you such as ye would not; lest by any means there should be strife, jealousy, wraths, factions, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults;

21  lest again when I come my God should humble me before you, and I should mourn for many of them that have sinned heretofore, and repented not of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they committed.

Php 2: 12-13 (ASV)
12  So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13  for (unless you do understand) it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.


Heb 10: 26-30 (MKJV)
26  For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
27  but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (note: the adversaries)
28  He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses.

29  Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of
God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30  For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people."

george.

[mharrell08]

Php 2: 12-13 (ASV)
12  So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13  for (unless you do understand) it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

George,

'For' means because or 'the reason why' NOT 'unless' or another alternative...we must work out our own salvation with fear & trembling because it is all up to God, not of ourselves.


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1030.msg8716.html#msg8716):

Dear Steve:

Yes, indirectly, all that God accomplishes through us depends on us doing what He wants us to do. But it is GOD, not we, who bring about the doing. This is the Truth of Scripture, however, few in the world give a hoot about what the Scriptures say:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling"

WHY?

"For [for means 'because'] it is GOD [Who? GOD! Men? No, GOD!] which works in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Is there a church anywhere on earth that believes this Scripture?  I know of none.

God be with you,

Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2199.msg17726.html#msg17726):

COMMENT: "ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18, Rom. 11:36, etc.).  Salvation is incorporated into the process of living.  We are made to live.  We have to live.  We HAVE to make decisions and choices in life:  it is forced upon us by the very nature of things.  But although we are made to live out our indiviedual experiences of life, behind it all is God.  We "work out our own salvation with fear and trembling," not because we have the ability to do so independent of God, but rather because of what we are told in the next verse:  "For [for means BECAUSE--here is the REASON we work out our own salvation]...For it is GOD which workies in you BOTH TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
     
    God be with you,
    Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,373.msg3111.html#msg3111):

I have people asking me to "Please explain the Bible to me, Ray."  Or: "Show me how to do God's perfect will so that I will be happy and have purpose in my life."

I can't really do these things. Here is what Paul instructs us:  "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence [Paul was now in prison in Rome, and would never see these Philippians again] , WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING."  Why?

"For [because] it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasre" (Phil. 2:12-12).

This sounds like a contradiction to most people. The reason that we "work out our own slavation with fear and trembling" is because it is ALL OF GOD.
We cannot look to our own devices or works--only God can and will save us. You MUST rely on God IN FAITH for all of these things in your life. God will CAUSE you to work all these things out in your life.  I will help as much as lies within me, but I cannot give you all the answers in an email, and I have too many email to write long essay type answers. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray


Thanks,

Marques

[bunnylife]

This scriptures comes to mind when reading all of the above.

I John 4:17-18 (NKJV)
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment (punishment). But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

For God is Love.

When is the day of judgment, now judgment has come to the house of God. As new creatures in Christ we are learning to revere Daddy God in His awesome plan for us and the world. For myself as I think how could this scripture be true when fable hell was fearful, terrible ... and like you I had to swallow it. It didn't make sense. Now it makes sense to me as I know it is God of Love doing it all.

In His Joy,
Bunni