free will

[ez2u]

after reading Marques and Marky  post  I believe free will is an illusion of mankind.  It isn't real.  I think this because of what Jesus said " I do the will of My Father"
That makes me think this where the answer is and the illusion or delusion of manking  ( its funny as i am typing this post i keep hitting the g instead of the d in mankind,  interesting...)   Free will is an illusion of our thinking  it isn't in the Father nor the Son  because it isn't real.  My question was stupid  full of what could have been controversy.  Thank God it was handle in a Godly fashion.  We can have a intellect mind and be so ungodly.  Forgive me  I don't know if i ready to post i need to grow more.  peggy

[Craig]

I disagree Marques.  A statement of fact is not also a statement of limitation to God.

Free will for us is a myth, because we cannot do anything that God has not willed and caused, we are limited by Gods will for our lives and teachings in our lives.

Who limits God? 

We are being formed in the image of God "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil".  We know good and evil but we cannot control good and evil.  God can.  God is a just loving and has all the attributes he tells us in his word.  God will never change, he is the same and will never change.  But that doesn't mean He couldn't?  If he couldn't, then who/what is limiting Him? 

No one or nothing limits God, He limits Himself the same as we will learn to do as we become like Him.  There will be a time when we not only know good and evil, but will only do good and we will not change, because we will be perfected in His image.

Is God "free" to do otherwise?  Of course, but will he?  Not a chance, and you can take that to the bank.

What I mean by the box in my previous post is, all the words we have written to describe God only use our human words and understanding to attribute our feelings and emotions to God puts Him into a box that He cannot possibly fit in.

Craig

[Ninny]

Peggy, you know if we didn't always do things a little wrong and a little immature at times we would never grow, we would never see the beauty in God' amazing love!! there is now therefore no condemnation! If there is now no condemnation, then we shouldn't condemn ourselves..
God's love surpasses any and all blunders we feel we have made along the way! If I counted every stupid mistake and stupid, immature thing I've done in my life, woo! You just keep walking, girl...You stand right up and keep on going, and just keep on going.....God will do the rest in you!!  If it wasn't so...I'd have been gone a long time ago....
Kathy

[mharrell08]

No one or nothing limits God, He limits Himself the same as we will learn to do as we become like Him. 

I think this is the root in where/how we disagree...I believe who & what He is (Love, Holy, etc.) limits Him, not freely but caused by His Holy Character. I do not believe He can 'freely' be what He is not (ie. sinful, corruptible, etc.).

Although we disagree, I respect your opinion...knowing you from time on the forum, I know you revere and respect our Lord and this is what you believe regarding Him. I can respect that...we all only know in part [1 Cor 13:9].


Thanks,

Marques

[Marky Mark]

Does Father have a free will?
As Ray states,we just do not know.


THE FATHER'S WILL? . . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2006


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html

We read these things, God doesn't change, but nobody thinks about it.  It's very important that God does never change and will never change.  Why do you think that's important?  Would it be better if He was flexible and changed a little bit?  You don't improve perfection.  Was God always perfect?  I don't know.
We learn.  Did God ever learn?  Now He knows everything, but did He ever learn?  I don't know.  It doesn't say.  But we know this, by the time He made the creation He either always was or reached perfection.  How could an imperfect God (I don't mean flawed or evil, but a God that was not perfect), how could He make a creation of humanity and say I've still got to work out a few bugs, in this theory of what we are doing and where we are going?   

Do understand I say these things humbly, I don't mean to be the less bit demeaning, when I say I don't know if God ever learned.  We know, that He knows now.   So how do we know if He learned?  He doesn't tell us.  But in one sense it doesn't matter, all we know is He's perfect.  How does He know He's perfect?  Well in order to claim perfection, you have to know what it is.  He would have to have such a vast knowledge of everything, to know whether there ever existed a possibility of ever becoming better than He is.  Think about that.  He knows so much, I mean one centimeter of brain could contain trillions and trillions of encyclopedias on end.  He knows so much, that He knows not only there is no one else like Him, He says I'm the only God," (1 Tim. 1:17; Jude 1:25).  There is nothing better He can achieve than what He is.  He's perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.




Peace...Mark

[Astrapho]

He's perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.

Yes. He's just that high above us.

In a way, I can't wait for the day of the Lord just so we can ask Him all these questions. Hahah!

But in the meantime, I don't think we'll ever really find out. Scripture wasn't too big on explaining this part, like Ray says.

[hillsbororiver]

He's perfect, now whether He always was or achieved it, there your brain only goes so far.

Yes. He's just that high above us.

In a way, I can't wait for the day of the Lord just so we can ask Him all these questions. Hahah!

I can't wait for that Day either! What a gloriously bright Day it will be, as we will no longer be stumbling about on darkened crooked paths with scales on our eyes and plugged up ears.  

Remember when Philip made this request of Jesus?

John 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Read the rest of the chapter to get His answer, in a nutshell Jesus answers that our Father has the same love, mercy and compassion that He (Jesus) does, only greater!

I do think that when we attempt to use earthly thoughts, ideas and language to describe our heavenly Father we will have as much success as taking a box of Crayola's (even the 64 colors) and drawing an accurate picture of Him.

Peace,

Joe  

[aqrinc]

To this point GOD Has Revealed some things about Himself, the revealed is what we know. Everything else is purely speculation, because we just cannot define GOD except by what HE has revealed of Himself.

Here below is just a little bit of what GOD Says, about puny man trying to figure HIM out.

Job 38: 1-18 (KJV)
1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2  Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5  Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7  When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10  And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11  And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12  Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13  That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15  And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16  Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17  Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18  Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Continuing to the end where GOD Asks one last question.

Job 40: 1-2 (KJV)
1  Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said,
2  Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.


To sum it all up, those scripture should teach us that:

We ought not to think too highly of ourselves, and try to constrain GOD to our miniscule view of HIM.

george.

[indianabob]

In my possible human ignorance I agree with Craig.

God chooses to be good and He doesn't change.  He says so and we can depend on that statement.
As humans we cannot yet do that.  We cannot choose to be good apart from God's influence.
It may not apply in this thread, but didn't Jesus choose to be good, with God's spirit and power?

It seems a little misleading to presume that God is good because He had no choice.
I thing that God made a choice or choices and sticks to them.  That is also what we are learning to do.

bob

[mharrell08]

I believe God makes choices and chooses to be good as well...but those choices are 'caused' by who and what He is. Not any external cause but an internal cause. Just because the 'cause' is internally, does not negate the fact that a cause exists.

God IS Love...not just doing loving things or displaying loving attributes...no, He IS Love.

Can He 'freely' be something He is not? Can Love, in itself, become hate? Can light, in itself, become darkness? They are polar opposites, and God tells us this, Himself, all through His Word. We know God has a knowledge of these things, there is no disputing that, but that is not what the subject is.

Love cannot be hate, love cannot change itself to become hate...and as we understand free will to mean, the choice has to be 'free'.

The church believes God has free will too...any and all theologians will unanimously say: Yes, God has free will. This is how they believe He 'changes' from who He is, Love, and change to hate of His enemies which then leads to torturing of most of His creation for all eternity.

Exodus 3:14  ...God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM

We will all be made into His image one day, we will all be made perfect...but Love will be the cause of all that we do, just like our Heavenly Father. And there will be no 'free choice' to be or do otherwise, because we will BE LOVE as our Father IS LOVE.

...God IS Love... 1 John 4:8 & 1 John 4:16


Marques

Late addition:

2 Tim 2:11-13  It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with Him: if we deny Him, He also will deny us: If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself [KJV].

2 Tim2:11-13  The saying is sure and worthy of confidence: If we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him. If we endure, we shall also reign with Him. If we deny and disown and reject Him, He will also deny and disown and reject us. If we are faithless [do not believe and are untrue to Him], He remains true (faithful to His Word and His righteous character), for He cannot deny Himself. [AMP]

Faithful to His Word and His righteous character