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Author Topic: Question need perspectives  (Read 5111 times)

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Daniel

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Question need perspectives
« on: June 09, 2006, 07:39:26 PM »

In Ecc it says we are all of one breath. I understand that Adam being given this breath made him a "living soul" right?  In Him we live move and have our being even though those He might have speaking to had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus breathed on His disciples and the recieved the Holy Spirit, is this at all counted as a "second breath"?

Especially considering that "HIS Spirit" bears witness with "our spirit" that we are the children of God.

I'm trying to sort out some thoughts and would appreciate other perspectives.

Peace

Daniel
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orion77

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2006, 10:20:33 PM »

Daniel, interesting thought.  Many scriptures speak of the breath of man and the breath of God.

(Gen 6:17)  And I, behold, I do bring the flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; everything that is in the earth shall die.


All of us who are brought out of the sea to the earth, shall be destroyed, where the breath of life, notice, that is under heaven.  This death of physical self must die to receive the breath of God who is Spirit.


(Job 32:8)  But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

(Psa 33:6)  By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

(Psa 104:29)  Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; Thou takest away their breath, they die, And return to their dust.

(Psa 104:30)  Thou sendest forth thy Spirit, they are created; And thou renewest the face of the ground.

(Isa 2:22)  Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils; for wherein is he to be accounted of?

(Isa 30:27)  Behold, the name of Jehovah cometh from far, burning with his anger, and in thick rising smoke: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue is as a devouring fire;

(Isa 30:28)  and his breath is as an overflowing stream, that reacheth even unto the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of destruction: and a bridle that causeth to err shall be in the jaws of the peoples.

(Jer 4:30)  And thou, when thou art made desolate, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with scarlet, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou enlargest thine eyes with paint, in vain dost thou make thyself fair; thy lovers despise thee, they seek thy life.

(Jer 4:31)  For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that gaspeth for breath, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul fainteth before the murderers.

(Lam 4:19)  Our pursuers were swifter than the eagles of the heavens: They chased us upon the mountains, they laid wait for us in the wilderness.

(Lam 4:20)  The breath of our nostrils, the anointed of Jehovah, was taken in their pits; Of whom we said, Under his shadow we shall live among the nations.

(Lam 4:21)  Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz: The cup shall pass through unto thee also; thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.

(Lam 4:22)  The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: He will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will uncover thy sins.

(2Th 2:8)  And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of his mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of his coming;

(Rev 13:15)  And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


The breath of man and beast is the physical life that sustains us, but the breath of God is in His Spirit.  The breath of man will cease, but the breath of God gives life.  Once the lawless one is revealed to us, then Jesus will slay him with His breath, the Spirit.   8)

Then we realize who are the enemies of God and we cry as a daughter of Zion, and gasp for breath (spirit of God), for we faint before the murderers, of which we once were.  

Not sure if I am on track or not, but nonetheless interesting.  8)

God bless,

Gary
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Daniel

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2006, 12:15:08 AM »

Thanks Gary for your input. I know that God created all invisible and visible. That in Him we live, move and have our being.

He gives physical breath to the body making "a living soul".

But I had been pondering something. Jesus said unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh you have "NO LIFE" in you. Well ofcourse we do (as some might argue) Gods breath gives our mortal bodies life by His Spirit, we could not be "physically alive" without "that life" in us. Yet Jesus does not seem to include the life of the flesh in his estimation. THATS what I'm thinking on right now.

So does the first breath count at all, if Jesus does not count it? That which is born of flesh is flesh right? YET Adam (man of the earth) formed from the dust of the ground was breathed into by God to become a living soul? And we "count that" in our spiritual comparisons don't we?

So the first breath, the One we have "both man and beast" has no preeminence over the other as is written.

So I thought concerning the "Second breath" that Jesus breathed on the disciples. Unless THAT is where its truly counted? Being a "living soul" spiritually speaking?

Ok, not clear yet, need to further my seeking on this thats why I asked for perspectives, thanks.

Paul spoke of death working in Him that life would work in others. Considering its the "second Adam" Jesus Christ who is a lifegiving Spirit I was pondering on the thought that Christ in Him (who He was one with) became in Paul that life giving Spirit. Lived out in Him, by Him, and For Him and through Him in this fashion. Its Christ alone I realize, and just a couple of unorganized thoughts thinking in another direction perhaps.

So I wondered what others might see concerning that first breath or second breath. Paul even says as eccl. says concerning "no man knoweth" of many things especially that of God, but his "own spirit". But God has given us of His own Spirit that we can know. His spirit which bears witness with our own spirit the things God has given us. Seems a second breath here is how I'm beginning to see it.

Sorry I'm speaking aloud without anything other then a few scattered thoughts on these things. If I get them better organized that might be best.

Peace

Daniel
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knuckle

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2006, 11:02:06 AM »

Hi Daniel---------

    The breath given to Adam was the breath of life.Adam was spiritually innocent as he was created without sin.When we accept Christ our sins are covered and we return to the spiritual innocence that Adam had, therefore the two breaths seem to be the same.I know that those who haven't Christ are physically alive but they walk in spiritual death through sin(ours and Adams) so to be born in sin basically means(to me anyway) to be born dead.We don't actually live until those sins are covered.

I am trying to be careful as to what I say on the forum as I am still kind of new here.I don't know what Ray would say about this and this is only my take on it.I had posted earlier on another subject and it was brought to my attention that "Bible Truths" didn't say what I was trying to get across.I then spent a couple of days e-mailing Mike to ask his understanding of what I was saying to return and find that he was no longer a part of this site.

Oh well,I guess what I am trying to make clear is that this is the way knuckle sees it,it isn't written in stone and if you think I am in error it is no biggie.This seems a fine board and the posters show a lot of love.It is hard to find that in a lot of "Christian" chats.


    much love---------knuckle
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ciy

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2006, 01:41:16 PM »

Daniel,
This is a very interesting subject.  Oddly enough reading your post makes me think of this in the book of Daniel.

When King Nebuchadrezzar,which means tears and groans of judgment, walked around in his palace and said one time too many I am a king look what I have done, he was cast down to eat with the animals and to act like animals.  After 7 years he remembered who he was (could this mean 7000 years?) and was restored back to his kingship (back to his father's house after eating with the pigs and beasts).  He was humbled so that he would realize the plight of man in the flesh (we will judge the angels that were left in heaven like the other brother in prodigal son).  Once he remebered he was redeemed.  He was lost then he was brought to remembrance and was restored (he was lost and now is found).  Is this meaning God saw how we were not fit to do the task at hand (the whole creation is groaning in anticipation of) because we were too prideful of our positions so in order to have completely new creations that had never existed before he cast us down to live in a flesh body, took away our memory of who we are until we were humbled and then realized who we were in Christ (a royal priesthood).  Then we are able to perform the task at hand thoughout the whole creation.

Some how that spirit that is in every man and woman is dormant until it is reenergized by accepting Christ or remembering who we are in Christ and him in us.  Just some thoughts that hit me hard while reading your post.
CIY
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Daniel

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2006, 01:10:02 AM »

Thank you Knuckle and Ciy, you gave me something to think about. I appreciate your input the both of you, Gary too.

Heck I'll wait on it see what comes of it right? Thats all I can do.

His blessing be with you

Daniel
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Lightseeker

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2006, 06:54:17 PM »

Daniel,

I was kinda waiting to see what popped up here.  I think you've asked some very good questions about two kinds of llife.  I'm going to throw a couple of things in for discussion.  One is something new, that I've just found, which challenges me and what I've been saying.  :cry:  Dang and I thought I had it all figured out.  :wink:

Quote
In Ecc it says we are all of one breath. I understand that Adam being given this breath made him a "living soul" right? In Him we live move and have our being even though those He might have speaking to had yet to receive the Holy Spirit.


You are correct in seeing that there are two kinds of life IMO.  There is the one we're all familiar with, which is 'chay nephesh life' which is in 'all living creatures'.
 
GEN 1:21  And God created great whales, and every living/chay creature/nephesh that moveth,
GEN 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living/chay creature/nephesh after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.



GEN 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living/chay soul/nephesh.

My question for anyone is this: So how are we different from the 'animals' since they/us both are chay nephesh...or living souls?

Gary,
Good scriptures.  One of them is leading me down a trail I'd forgot about.  May share that later.

Daniel,
Quote
But I had been pondering something. Jesus said unless you drink my blood and eat my flesh you have "NO LIFE" in you. Well ofcourse we do (as some might argue) Gods breath gives our mortal bodies life by His Spirit, we could not be "physically alive" without "that life" in us. Yet Jesus does not seem to include the life of the flesh in his estimation. THATS what I'm thinking on right now.

GOOD GOOD GOOD.  

Knuckle,

Welcome to the forum.  The forum rules don't require being a ditto head.  Ray himself has admitted (wisely so IMO) that he may have mistakes.  That is true of anyone smart enough to know how dumb we really are.  I once read that a often quoted church father (Augustine) on his death bed passed away.  All of a sudden he reawoke, sit straight up in bed and said, "All that I have written is but straw."  A sobering thought for all of us.

Daniel,

I would like to finish with one more comment for you.
Quote
When Jesus breathed on His disciples and they recieved the Holy Spirit, is this at all counted as a "second breath"?

 
Jesus did not impart The Holy Spirit unto His disciples at this time, as tradition teaches.  He specifically told them to 'wait in Jerusalem' to receive the promised Holy Spirit.  The feast of Pentecost is representative of receiving/lambano The Holy Spirit.  And Passover is representative of receiving/decomai Jesus and the salvation of your spirit.

What Jesus was doing in John 20:22 was prophesying Pentecost to them.  He breathed (Gr. to blow at or on) them and then said "Receive/lambano" the Holy Spirit.  The Greek word Lambano is talking about a 'self prompted taking' of something.  They obeyed Jesus and stayed Jerusalem to receive/lambano or take it when the time was "fully come"...they knew the time was right when they 'heard the breath of God blowing on them' eg. 'rushing mighty wind' just like when Jesus blew on them and told them to take/accept what followed.  

ACT 1:4  And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Before one can receive The Holy Spirit...their own spirit must become holy via the new birth.  Scripture doesn't adequately distinguish between our holy spirit and The Holy Spirit.  Translators capitalized holy spirit over 50 times in the NT when it was really talking about our holy spirit not God's Holy Spirit.
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knuckle

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2006, 08:26:41 PM »

Hi all---------

   Lightseeker wrote----Knuckle,

Welcome to the forum. The forum rules don't require being a ditto head. Ray himself has admitted (wisely so IMO) that he may have mistakes. That is true of anyone smart enough to know how dumb we really are. I once read that a often quoted church father (Augustine) on his death bed passed away. All of a sudden he reawoke, sit straight up in bed and said, "All that I have written is but straw." A sobering thought for all of us.


    Thankyou Lightseeker,for the welcome and the message.I first visited another (Mike's) site and then this one not looking so much for a new understanding but rather one that was closer to my own.Before posting here I made it a point to read most of the articles on both sites and found alot of the same ideas voiced here that I have had for years.I must admit however that ( and I mean absolutely no disrespect) sometimes the  "what would Ray say about it" mentality came across kind of "cultish"for lack of better terms.I think that both Ray and Mike have a very good insight on the scriptures,But I was getting the feeling that we were expected to e-mail one of them every time we had an idea.The " not ditto heads" remark could not have come at a better time because I was sincerely having second thoughts about posting here.Again thank you.

much love---------knuckle
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Programmer

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2006, 11:55:49 PM »

>>My question for anyone is this: So how are we different from the 'animals' since they/us both are chay nephesh...or living souls?<<

You need to look at the further definition of 'nephesh'...which  means 'breathing creature'. A definition which plants don't fit into...

The difference ?

Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
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Daniel

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 12:14:48 AM »

Hey Dee, thank you all for your input. I'm done posting for awhile (if indefinately, up to mods on that).

Its been a blessing to fellowship with you. And ofcourse making rounds with the "Dee" man, I will miss our rounds :wink:

Didn't want to leave without saying goodbye and be rude (rude is a put off). As Dee said (like this one) HIM BE ONYA (its a keeper Dee) :lol:


His blessings be with you guys

Peace and love

Daniel
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rocky

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 10:28:46 AM »

Daniel, I hope you don't stay away long, I enjoy your posts and learn a lot from them.  Your understanding of the scripture is "alive", and the love of Christ flows from you.  Christ is using you, thank you for your effort and time here.
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mercie

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 10:31:43 AM »

Quote from: rocky
Daniel, I hope you don't stay away long, I enjoy your posts and learn a lot from them.  Your understanding of the scripture is "alive", and the love of Christ flows from you.  Christ is using you, thank you for your effort and time here.


Yea!
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Lightseeker

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2006, 08:13:52 PM »

Knuckle,

You're welcome for the welcome.  :lol:  Here are the forum rules I mentioned.  
Quote
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship and discuss what they learn on bible-truths.com. Others are welcome as long as questions are respectful and carry no agenda. If you seriously disagree with Ray or Mike, please email them directly.

If you come here to teach us, please take your teaching elsewhere.

Please do not make sport of persons who email Ray or Mike. Leave any criticism of the individual to Ray or Mike. But feel free to express your scholarly views about the email, or any subject.

No preaching (including preaching via links). No name-calling.


These are fair parameters I think.  The opportunity to learn from others here, who do know Ray/Mike's material well, should keep you from having to E-mail Ray personally.  Many are excited to share what they've learned.  At least that's been my experience.  Have fun, make friends and fellowship in love.  You probably won't make everyone happy because Immaturity is always intollerant of immaturity.  That's just life.

Daniel,

I'll PM you.
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Daniel

  • Guest
Question need perspectives
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2006, 08:43:26 PM »

I thought I would take a break, being I had misunderstood something on another thread I thought rather hurtful in intent. It was my own fault and no others. I had made my appologies to Craig (openly) for wrongly assuming of his position with another poster.

I am still around :D  I don't have a single thought to come to me concerning this yet. Sometimes He just gives you a little at a time, I'm fine with that, but certainly hoping for more.

Peace

Daniel
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ertsky

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2006, 08:45:17 PM »

Hi Knuckle

i read a couple of lines in there i thought i should comment on

Quote
Adam was spiritually innocent as he was created without sin.


like a duck to water, it didn't take long for him and his descendants after him (especially me) to get into it though did it?

Quote
we return to the spiritual innocence that Adam had


we've already borne that image Knuckle, only too well.

1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

f
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knuckle

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 06:18:41 AM »

Hi ertsky---------

    you wrote---like a duck to water, it didn't take long for him and his descendants after him (especially me) to get into it though did it? ---Amen to that(me too) but all according to the plan

     you also wrote----1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.--- I am trying real hard to overcome this flesh ertsky,but as of yet I am still carnal.I am afraid that it will take alot more fire to burn knuckle's stubble away but I pray God will keep fanning the flame


    much love---------knuckle
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rocky

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 10:16:59 AM »

Quote from: knuckle
.....I am trying real hard to overcome this flesh ertsky,but as of yet I am still carnal.I am afraid that it will take alot more fire to burn knuckle's stubble away but I pray God will keep fanning the flame


    much love---------knuckle


I hope this isn't hijacking this thread, and if it is, maybe a new thread should be started, but Knuckle wrote I am trying real hard to overcome this flesh.  

Just what does overcome flesh mean??  I see this written often, and wonder what it means to each individual???
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knuckle

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2006, 03:22:27 PM »

Hi rocky------


  I think you did a fine job of describing what I was talking about in your "overcoming sin" thread

much love-------knuckle
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ertsky

  • Guest
Question need perspectives
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2006, 03:23:21 PM »

Hi Knuckle

i better spell it out to avoid misunderstanding

when you said

Quote
Adam was spiritually innocent as he was created without sin.


i thought "that's misleading", even though He may have been created without having YET committed a particular sin, still He was made "a sinning machine". (as you say according to the plan)

and when you said

Quote
When we accept Christ our sins are covered and we return to the spiritual innocence that Adam had


i thought "false doctrine" we are dragged to Christ to recieve the image of Him that loved us not the image of Adam which is a sinning image.

so i quoted

1Co 15:49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

to show that it is NOT the earthy (first adam) that we "return to" as you typed but indeed the heavenly (the Lord from heaven) yes His image we will be conformed to God willing.

f
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knuckle

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Question need perspectives
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2006, 07:21:07 PM »

Hi ertsky---------

     
     the original post I had made was reguarding the atonement of Christ and not sonship(which was what Paul taught) here on this forum you use the terms called and chosen.When I was talking about returning to Adam's state of spiritual innocence I was speaking to the state we obtain upon being "called" our sins and those we were born in are covered by Christs sacrafice and are forgotten.Sonship(being chosen,an overcomer) is an ongoing process.We are still in the flesh so to speak and that sinning machine you mention must be dealt with.That is why we walk through the fire in this life, to destroy it.Only the few will reach the state of 1Cor 15:47 in this life,the rest us will go through the lake of fire after.But we will all reach it by the time Christ returns the kingdom to the Father and God becomes All in All.

   We use terms sometimes that can be confusing,Sonship,called,chosen etc that when one person writes them they may mean something different than what the person reading them takes them to mean.I pray that all my further posts are easily understood.I regret if this one was misleading   :oops:


  One more thing While we are talking about Adam though---the ONLY sin he could commit was eating that fruit because "dont eat it" was the only law he had.


  much love--------knuckle
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