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Witnesses and missionaries to Babylon?
newoldstock:
just Joe. So I did not mean to say that Joe did say to throw out anything in Scripture. But it does seem to be the general consensus here that parts of those verses do not belong in scripture. Which ones do and which one don't? Who decides and how do they decide? I did do a Google search on Matt 28:19. The Oneness folks say it is a scribe add-on and the Trinitarians say it not (it is in all of my large collection of bible versions with no notes to indicate a problem) and they say it is the best verse in the bible indicating the doctrine of Trinity. Both sides show evidence to prove their point. I am not trying to argue or debate. I am trying to understand. ??? Everyone places their "spin" on the bible based on what they believe to be true. Only God for sure knows what is true. Once again, I started this thread in Christian love not to be divisive. I will continue to read and study the forum and Ray's site and keep my trap shut until I have a better grasp of Bible Truths after all I have been gone quite a while and need to get back up to speed. ;D
NoviceBeliever:
newoldstock: I hope this helps! NB
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html
HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE . . . . . . . . . . Mobile Conference 2007
and this excerpt
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html
SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
The list below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209
http://www.davidcox.com.mx/library/T/Tischendorf,%20von%20Constantin%20-%20Discovery%20of%20Sinaitic%20Manuscript.pdf
The following words, found in our Common Version (King James Version) are not found in the Oldest Manuscripts, and are evidently no part of the Divine Word. Let each Berean go through his Bible, pencil in hand, and mark out these words: then read the passages affected and note the improvement. This list comprises all the important interpolations discovered to date.
The compiler has condensed this list. From the compiler’s point of view there exist very good reasons why everything in this list should be crossed out of our Bibles. Thus, when the interpolations are eliminated from Mark 14:30, 68, 72, the account agrees exactly with that given by the other evangelists. Or, take Luke 23:34: history shows that the Jews have been obliged as a race to expiate their crime. Or take John 4:9: it does not agree at all with Luke 9:52, which shows that even the Lord himself did have such dealings. Omitted from this list are the dozens of interpolations made by early copyists with the aim of making all the narratives uniform, and the hundreds of non-essential words, the addition of which does not affect the purity of the message. (Some of these passages have already been omitted by more modern translations such as the New American Standard or the New International Version, since they were translated from the more reliable, ancient manuscripts.)
Matt. 5:23
without a cause
Matt. 6:13
For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matt. 6:25
or what ye shall drink*
Matt. 16:2
When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matt. 16:3
This entire verse
Matt.17:21
and fasting
Matt.18:12
into the mountains
Matt. 2O:7
and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matt. 22:13
and take him away
Matt. 23:35
son of Barachias*
Matt. 24:10
and shall hate one another*
Matt. 24:31
sound of a*
Matt. 24:41
women shall be
Matt. 25:6
cometh
Matt. 27:52
and the graves were opened*
Matt. 27: 53
and went*
Matt. 28:19
therefore
Mark 4:37
so that it was now full*
Mark 6:51
beyond measure and wondered
Mark 7:8
For as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things as ye do
Mark 7:14
unto me every one of you
Mark 9:24
with tears
Mark 9:29
and fasting
Mark 9:44
This entire verse
Mark 9:45
into the fire that shall never be quenched
Mark 9:46
This entire verse
Mark 9:47
fire
Mark 9:49
and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt
Mark 10:24
for them that trust in riches
Mark 10:30
houses and brethren and sisters and mothers and children and lands with persecutions*
Mark 14:30
twice*
Mark 14:68
and the cock crew
Mark 14:72
the second time*
twice*
Mark 16:9-20
All these verses
Luke 2: 40
in spirit
Luke 8:45
and sayest thou, Who touched me?
Luke 16:16
and every man presseth into it
Luke 17:12
which stood afar off*
Luke17:35
women
Luke 18:11
with himself*
Luke 22:43
This entire verse
Luke 22:44
This entire verse
Luke 22:68
me, nor let me go
Luke 23:5
teaching*
Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father forgive them; for they know not what they do
Luke 24:42
and of an honeycomb
John 1:25
asked him, and*
John 3:13
which is in heaven
John 4:9
for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans
John 5:3
waiting for the moving of the water
John 5:4
This entire verse
John 5:25
and now is*
John 8:1-11
all these verses
John 8:59
going through the midst of them and so passed by
John 16:16
because I go to the Father
John 19:23
and also his coat*
John 21:25
This entire verse
Acts 6:3
Holy Ghost and (should read “spirit of”)
Acts 6:8
faith (should read “grace”)
Acts 8:37
This entire verse
Acts 9:31
churches (should read “church”)
were (should read “was”)
Acts 15:32
and confirmed them*
Acts 18:5
pressed in the spirit (should read “earnestly occupied with the Word“)
Acts 18:21
I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but
Rom. 3:22
and upon all
Rom. 6:12
it in
Rom. 7:6
that being dead (should read “being dead to that”)
Rom. 8:26
for us
Rom. 11:6
But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work
Rom. 14:6
and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it
1 Cor. 2:1
testimony (should read “mystery”)
1 Cor. 6:20
and in your spirit, which are God’s
1 Cor. 7:5
fasting and
1 Cor. 10:28
for the earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof
1 Cor. 15:24
cometh
2 Cor. 4:14
by (should read “with”)
Gal. 3:1
that ye should not obey the truth
Gal. 3:17
in Christ
Gal. 5:19
adultery
Gal. 5:21
murders
Eph. 5:9
Spirit (should read “light”)
Eph. 5:30
of his flesh, and of his bones
2 Thess. 2:9
Even him
1 Tim. 3:16
God (should read “who”)*
1 Tim. 4:12
in spirit*
1 Tim. 6:5
from such withdraw thyself*
2 Tim. 3:3
without natural affection*
Heb. 12:18
mount that might be touched and that burned with fire (should read “fire that might be touched and burned“)*
Heb. 12:20
or thrust through with a dart*
James 5:16
Confess your faults (should read “Therefore confess your sins”)*
1 Pet. 2:5
spiritual (before the word “sacrifices”)
1 Pet. 3:8
courteous (should read “humble”)
2 Pet. 1:1
God and our (should read “our Lord and”)*
1 John 3:16
of God
1 John 5:7
in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one
1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth
1 John 5:13
and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God
Rev. 1:17
unto me, Fear not*
Rev. 2:22
their (should read “her”)*
Rev. 5:3
neither under the earth*
Rev. 5:9
us (omitted by the Alexandrian Ms., one of the three oldest Mss. known)
Rev. 5:10
us (should read “them”)
we (should read “they”)
Rev. 5:13
and under the earth*
Rev. 6:2
to conquer (should read “he conquered”)*
Rev. 9:4
neither any green thing*
Rev. 9:13
the four horns of*
Rev. 10:6
and the sea, and the things which are therein*
Rev. 11:17
and art to come*
Rev. 12:12
inhabiters of* of (before the words “the sea”)
Rev. 14:5
before the throne of God*
Rev. 14:12
here are they*
Rev. 16:5
and shalt be (should read “the holy”)*
Rev. 16:7
another out of*
Rev. 16:11
and their sores*
of their deeds*
Rev. 16:17
from the throne*
Rev. 18:22
of whatsoever craft he be*
and the stone of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee*
Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*
Rev. 21:24
of them which are saved*
and honor*
Rev. 21:26
and honor*
Rev. 22:3
more*
* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. These not thus marked are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. The Epistles to Timothy, the latter part of Hebrews, and all of Revelation, are missing from the Vatican Manuscript, No. 1209, having been lost during the fifteen or more centuries since it was written. The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.
http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm
aqrinc:
--- Quote from: newoldstock on July 28, 2009, 10:55:45 PM ---just Joe. So I did not mean to say that Joe did say to throw out anything in Scripture. But it does seem to be the general consensus here that parts of those verses do not belong in scripture. Which ones do and which one don't? Who decides and how do they decide? I did do a Google search on Matt 28:19. The Oneness folks say it is a scribe add-on and the Trinitarians say it not (it is in all of my large collection of bible versions with no notes to indicate a problem) and they say it is the best verse in the bible indicating the doctrine of Trinity. Both sides show evidence to prove their point. I am not trying to argue or debate. I am trying to understand. ??? Everyone places their "spin" on the bible based on what they believe to be true. Only God for sure knows what is true. Once again, I started this thread in Christian love not to be divisive. I will continue to read and study the forum and Ray's site and keep my trap shut until I have a better grasp of Bible Truths after all I have been gone quite a while and need to get back up to speed. ;D
--- End quote ---
newoldstock,
Sorry if you think i was arguing, no just making a point about that particular statement.
Here is a link to the spurious passages:
The list below is on Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6638.0.html
Please do not think for a minute that anything you asked or stated, was in the slightest bit offensive to me. We all come here to learn and fellowship, not to find fault with each other. Put on your armor and cover my back, i will cover yours; isn't that what soldiers on the same side do?.
The words in red below are from Jesus Christ Himself:
Joh 6:63 (CLV)
63 The Spirit is that which is vivifying. The flesh is not benefiting anything. The declarations which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
64 But there are some of you who are not believing. For Jesus had perceived from the beginning who those are who are not believing, and who it is that gives Him up."
Peace brother, we fight on the same side; and for One Master, Jesus Christ our Lord And King.
george. :)
ericsteven:
I’m hope I’m not making a big deal out of this, but I’m at a loss as to understanding why Tischendorf’s list of spurious passages is being used to show that the whole of Matthew 28:19 is spurious. According to his list, the only word in the verse that is spurious is the word “therefore.”
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
According to him, the verse should read:
Matthew 28:19 Go ye, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
The truth is that the “triune formula,” so to speak, is present in most all of the early manuscripts that we have, including the two oldest Greek manuscripts: the Sinaitic and the Vatican, on which Tischendorf based his list.
I said “most all” of the early manuscripts above because according to the following references, two of them don’t even contain the end of Matthew for whatever reason.
-- F.C. Conybeare - Fellow of University College, Oxford, and Professor of Theology at the University of Oxford.
In the only codices which would be even likely to preserve an older reading, namely the Sinaitic Syriac and the oldest Latin Manuscript, the pages are gone which contained the end of Matthew.
-- Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics
In all extant versions the text is found in the traditional form, though it must be remembered that the African old Latin and the old Syriac versions are 'defective at this point.’
The "older reading" being referred to would be something close to the following:
Matthew 29:19 Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations in my name.
So, since we have no early manuscript evidence that the “triune formula” is spurious, we must make that determination using other methods, most importantly through the use of the rest of Scripture itself, as Ray tried briefly alluded to in his email response to Gerhard:
"Did the Apostles EVER baptize ANYONE in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? No, no they didn't. They baptized in the name of Jesus only. Therefore, this section of your Bible is not even Scripture in the first place."
My point, though is not to go into that, but to say that I think maybe we should be more careful about throwing Tischendorf’s list around as if it is the end all be all of the spurious texts in the Bible.
Ray said in that email that the phrase “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is spurious, and I believe him. However neither he nor we can nor should use Tischendorf’s list to prove that, seeing as how not only does the list not show that the whole verse is spurious, but also the spurious phrase being discussed is present in both manuscripts on which the list is based.
I hope I’m not coming across as contentious. I just think that if we are going to point someone in a correct direction regarding a specific false doctrine we need to use accurate information and sources so the person doesn’t end up becoming more confused than when he/she started.
That said, if I misunderstood the intention for posting Dr. Tischendorf's list, I do apologize.
Eric
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: aqr on July 28, 2009, 10:26:48 PM ---
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on July 28, 2009, 06:29:57 PM ---I understand the question about why we are not commissioned to "spread the Word" when Matt 28:19 appears to say we should.
(Remember the entire bible is a parable)
What Ray states makes perfect sense, the task was given to the apostles to sow the seed of the (type/shadow) Kingdom. This was given to those flesh and blood apostles.
Once the church(es) is/are established and they beget more offspring (denominations) establishing even more and more doctrines, all the confusion the churches promote surpasses even the language issues experienced by the builders of the Tower of Babylon. (another parable you think?)
The corruption of the churches "waxes worse and worse" but a remnant of believers are called out, we have scriptural witnesses to substantiate this, are there any (scriptures) commanding a return to Babylon?
For any reason?
I am not aware of any yet if there are I am anxious to meditate on them and recalibrate my present understanding in view of a new Light, every little bit I am blessed to learn always reveals how much more I have to learn, understand and experience.
Back to the topic at hand;
Is this (Mat 28:19) yet another parable? Might we lose the meaning taking it only literally rather than literally to the flesh and blood apostles of Jesus's time as well as a prophecy of the Lord's command to His elect (after the change) to TRULY convert the nations!
I believe this was fulfilled in the flesh, but the better fulfillment will be in the ages to come!
Peace,
Joe
--- End quote ---
Joe did not anywhere say to throw out anything in Scripture. The statement that:
(Remember the entire bible is a parable) is true, but not literally only a parable. All the Words in Scripture mean things, many things from the same words sometimes. Literal interpretations usually have a higher Spiritual meaning, or rather ever higher Spiritual meanings. There was a literal Ark Of The Covenant with physical Israel; This Represented a Higher Spiritual Ark Of The Covenant.
One of Ray's more memorable quotes for me is:
The words of the bible don't mean what they say; they mean what they mean, try that for a parable.
george. ;D
--- End quote ---
Thanks George for clarifying my point, I certainly would not suggest any limitations on the Word of God, I am a firm believer that the depth of His Word is beyond our total comprehension (presently), by that I mean scripture is true on many levels some of which we barely scratch the surface. That does not exclude it also being true in a literal sense as well, therein lies the parable.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
I think the above verse is very applicable to our learning process as we gain any godly wisdom through this journey.
Peace,
Joe
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