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Author Topic: New Covenant Question  (Read 3130 times)

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ericsteven

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New Covenant Question
« on: August 01, 2009, 04:29:16 AM »

Hello all,

I was wondering if I might be able to get some input from some of you on how you might answer the following question if it was asked to you:

"What exactly is the New Covenant and with whom was it made?"

Thanks in advance. 

Eric
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Kat

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2009, 10:42:48 AM »


Hi Eric,

Here are a couple places where Ray discusses the new covenant.

http://bible-truths.com/email8.htm -----------------------------------

You are not distinguishing between things that differ as the Scriptures admonish us.

It seems hardly anyone knows that "fulfill means." Jesus said that he "fulfilled" the LAW, yet it is taught today in the Church that it YET needs to be fulfilled BY US. What is that?  I have never heard a minister yet put the parts of Christ declaration together:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law OR THE PROPHETS: I am not come to destroy, [the law AND THE PROPHETS], but to fulfill [the law AND THE PROPHETS]" (Matt. 5:17).

Now then, did Jesus Christ "fulfill" all of the prophecies concerning Him? Well if He did, then does there REMAIN any that He DID NOT FULFILL? Then why doesn't anyone, it seems, believe that He also and in the very same way fulfilled "the law?"

We are now under a NEW COVENANT [and Hebrews 8 tells us that this NEW covenant is NOT IN ACCORD with the OLD covenant.

The Pharisees kept the old testament law of Moses with its ten commandments. But Jesus said that WE, Believers, must FAR EXCEED the righteousness of the Pharisees. Jesus gave us NEW COMMANDMENTS that are far superior to the old law. Christ's laws are SPIRITUAL laws. The Old Covenant which really IS "the ten commandments" (See Deut. 4:13) was an administration of DEATH. The laws were of the letter (death) not of the spirit (life). See II Cor. 3.

Under the Old Covenant you were to HATE YOUR ENEMIES. Under the New we are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Love your enemies is not a slight modification of hating your enemies.  Not lusting after a woman is not a slight modification of not committing physical intercourse with a married woman. NOT SWEARING is not a slight modification of swearing!  Etc. Can you see this? Under the old covenant one was to love his neighbor as himself. Under the new we are to esteem our neighbor HIGHER than ourselves. Do you see the difference?

Things that were "holy" and have run their course, are NO LONGER Holy. All Israel was Holy. Physical Israel is no longer holy. Sacrifices were HOLY unto the Lord; they no longer are. Tithing was just as specific a law as sacrificing. Tithes were of farm products NOT MONEY. It was paid to the Levites. There are no Levites today. It was kept in storehouses. There are no storehouses today.


http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm -----------------------------------------

This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.

Paul taught:

"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24-25). 

The law was like elementary school, whereas living by faith in Christ is more like high school or college.

Is not elementary school necessary before high school? Most elementary students cannot do high school or college work. Do high school and college teachers contradict the math, grammar, and science that was learned in elementary school. No, of course not, and so neither does Jesus CONTRADICT the lessons of the Law of Moses which brought us to Him. We never contradict 2 + 2 = 4 when we get to high school, but we do move onto higher math and do not continue re-laying the foundation of these subjects already established back in elementary school.

We will now turn to the Sermon on the Mount and see if we are able to learn a little "new [spiritual] math."

Lets be clear on one thing before we enter this study. You will find the phrase, New Covenant, New Testament, and New Commandment in the Greek Scriptures, But you will not find the phrase "New LAW" anywhere. There are "new commandments" regarding that law, the but law is the same, as it is "spiritual" and therefore is not "temporal" (II Cor. 4:18).

And let me make this perfectly clear. In the Old Covenant Law, we read this: 

"...you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18 & Matt. 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, etc.) 

The apostle John informs us that this commandment is not new: 

"And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we should love one another" (II John 1:5).

But John also knew that Jesus did add something to this commandment:

"And this is HIS commandment, that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, AS He gave us commandment" (I John 3:23). 

Well was there something different about this commandment from the Old Covenant Law and "AS" Jesus commanded it? Yes there was. A new Law? No. A contradictory Law? No. Well what then was different from the way Jesus taught and kept this commandment to "love your neighbor?"

Here it is, simply and profoundly: "A NEW commandment I give unto you, That you love one another [same as the Old Commandment, right? No, here is were the new "AS" part comes in...] ...That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, that you also love one another" (John 13:34). Now that brings a whole lot more meaning to the "old" commandment which they had from the beginning. Loving "AS" Jesus loved, is a whole new ball game, as they say.

There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."

The problem was never with the Law, but with the people:

"O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..." (Deut. 5:29).

The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:6-7).

And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT:

"For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Heb. 8:7-9). 

There it is!

The New makes alive and ends in "eternal [eonian-immortal] LIFE."

"Who also has made us able ministers of the NEW Testament; not of the letter, but of the SPIRIT: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6). 

This along with the blood sacrifice of Jesus IS the New Covenant; the Gospel; the Kingdom of God.

The Old letter of the law was glorious, but the newly applied Spirit of the law does "much more exceed in glory" (II Cor. 3:9). The Old Covenant law was how God's people were judged under Moses: the New Covenant law is how God's chosen Elect will be judged under Jesus.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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mharrell08

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2009, 10:44:23 AM »

Hello all,

I was wondering if I might be able to get some input from some of you on how you might answer the following question if it was asked to you:

"What exactly is the New Covenant and with whom was it made?"

Thanks in advance. 

Eric


That's a great question Eric...I would hope the Lord would humble me to just allow His Word to speak for itself. After showing them these scriptures and possibly a few more if they came to mind, I would wait on their response.


Jer 31:31-33  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


Hebrews Chapter 8

v1  Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

v2  A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

v3  For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

v4  For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law [old covenant]:

v5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

v6  But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he [Jesus] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

v7  For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

v8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

v9  Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

v10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

v11  And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

v12  For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

v13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Rom 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


John 4:19-24 

v19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

v20  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

v21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

v22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews [Spiritual Jews...Rom 2:28-29].

v23  But for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

v24  God is Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


Phil 3:3  For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.



Marques
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cjwood

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2009, 06:09:34 PM »

thank You Father for causing eric to ask this question, so that You could then work through kathy and marques to bring to the forefront of our Spiritual minds the Truths that are in Your Word regarding the New Covenant to all whom You have called out of old jerusalem into the light of Your Spiritual Jerusalem. thank You Father for the better promises of Your New Covenant. and Dear Father, thank You for continuing to shine Your Light on the Truth that we must continue to seek You and continue to follow after Christ Jesus our Minister Who offered the ultimate sacrifice.

amen and amen,
claudia
« Last Edit: August 02, 2009, 04:01:08 PM by cjwood »
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ericsteven

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 03:17:02 PM »

Thank you, Kat, Marques, and Claudia for your responses. 

Another question, if you don’t mind.

Marques, you posted the following verse regarding whom the New Covenant was made with:

Heb 8:8     For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

...which, of course, is a quote from Jeremiah 31.

My question, then, is this (to anyone, not just Marques): 

If Israel is now a spiritual Israel, as Ray teaches, what is the spiritual purpose behind referring to Israel collectively as “the House of Israel” and “the House of Judah?”

Jeremiah 31:33, of course, refers to the singular "house of Israel," but why refer to the seperate houses just two verses before in verse 31?

More simply, I guess, who, spiritually speaking, is the “House of Israel” and who, spiritually speaking, is “the House of Judah” if it’s not speaking of the two physical houses or kingdoms that came into existence after Solomon’s reign and were then sent into exile to Assyria and Babylon?

Hope the question makes sense.

Eric
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hillsbororiver

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 04:17:36 PM »

Hi Eric,

I won't presume to give a definitive answer but I will offer some scriptures that might be relevant food for thought;


 Hebrews 7

 11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

 12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

 13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

 14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

 15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

 16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.

 17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

 20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

 21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

 22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

 23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

 24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

 25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

 27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

*(Who now are implored to make a daily sacrifice?)

 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

* 1Co 15:31  I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

Contrast that with this;

Heb 10:12  But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Peace,

Joe
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Phil3:10

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 04:58:10 PM »

Thanks Joe, Eric,Kat and all for your explanations of the New Covenant. Kat, it was such a good explanation from Ray that I intend to print it out for future reference. Joe, how very well you pointed out in the verses that JESUS THE CHRIST is the better surety and all we will ever need. Eric, it is questions like yours that makes this forum such a blessing to visit. It is indeed a wonderful blessing to be able to read and understand our LORD'S teachings in such a way that no church minister could ever present for my understanding.
Again, my thanks to you and to all who visit this forum. You help me so much in understanding the truths of our GOD and are indeed a blessing worth so very much.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Kat

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 05:24:57 PM »


Hi Eric,

I think this excerpt from the article 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' should help with your question.

http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html ---

                                             JEWS STILL REJECT JESUS

Judah did not obey God through most of their long history. The Jews as a nation did not repent at the preaching of John the Baptist. They killed their own Savior!

"Let all the house of Israel know certainly, then, that God Makes Him Lord as well as Christ--this Jesus Whom you [Jews] crucify!" (Acts 2:36).

But Christ forgave them before He even died:

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

He commissioned his apostles to herald the good news of His resurrection and the coming Kingdom of God to them again, but again, as a nation, the Jews rejected Him.

So now what? So then Christ calls Saul to be "Paul." And so Paul preaches and teaches in Jerusalem. And what kind of reception did Paul and his message receive?

"Now he [Paul] argued in the synagogue on every sabbath ... Paul was pressed in the word, certifying to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ. Now at their [the Jews] resisting and blaspheming, shaking out his garments, he said to them, ‘Your blood be on your head! Clear am I! From now on I SHALL GO TO THE NATIONS" (Acts 18:4-6).

Just as Christ prophesied

"...neither will they be persuaded if someone should be rising from among the dead."

The Scriptures do plainly state that the Jews shall yet find salvation through Christ’s Sacrifice, because it was God who blinded them in the first place so that they would not and could not understand and repent! Isaiah prophesied that they would not repent and so Christ did not heal them (Mat. 13:1915). "...us [Gentiles], whom He calls also, not only out of the Jews, but out of the nations also..." (Rom.. 9:24). And

"I shall be calling those who are not My people [poor and wretched people like Lazarus--Gentiles] ‘My people,’" (Rom. 9:25).

Yes ALL PEOPLE will be GOD’S PEOPLE!

If that thought doesn’t bring joy to our hearts, I don’t know what could. And

"I became disclosed to those [Gentiles] who are not inquiring for Me" (Rom. 10:20).

Since the time that Paul said "From now on I shall go to the nations," the Jews have, except for rare and individual cases, rejected Christ risen from the dead. But millions of poor rejected people like Lazarus have been brought into Abraham’s bosom, into a close and intimate relationship with God Himself.
v
v

Let’s read the good news:

"...I will make a NEW Covenant with the house of Israel, and the house of Judah... For this is the Covenant that I WILL MAKE [future tense] with the house of Israel AFTER THOSE DAYS [those days of blindness and unregenerate hearts crying out from the symbolic gates of hades], saith the Lord; I will put my Laws INTO THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people" (Heb. 8:8-10).

Judah had the "promises," the "Oracles" of God, the "Royalty," the "Priesthood," the "Seat of Moses," the "Temple of God," the "Ark of the Covenant," enormous "wealth and riches," the "Possession of the Land," and the prophesied "Messiah." But they crucified their only Savior! For this they will certainly go through many "tormenting" trials and afflictions, but the fire of God’s Holy Spirit will cleanse them of their sins and they WILL BE SAVED--ALL OF THEM!

"And thus ALL Israel shall be saved..." (Rom. 11:26)

So sad that the Scriptures are not believed and the gospel rarely preached. People accuse me continually of teaching that unbelievers, and evil unrepentant and unregenerate sinners will be saved in THAT condition. I have never even suggested such a repugnant thing. God WILL CHANGE THEM. And it all begins in THE HEART! They will repent at the goodness of God.

"And thus ALL Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer [that’s CHRIST!]. He WILL be turning away irreverence from Jacob [Jacob includes Israel and Judah], And this is My Covenant with them whenever I SHOULD BE ELIMINATING THEIR SINS" (Rom. 11:26-27).

If we would but believe these simple and profound Scriptures there would never be such distortions of God’s Word being taught as is the case with this parable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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mharrell08

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 09:19:05 PM »

If Israel is now a spiritual Israel, as Ray teaches, what is the spiritual purpose behind referring to Israel collectively as “the House of Israel” and “the House of Judah?”


I think this is where the confusion lies...was as believers, right now, are referred to as both 'the House of Israel' and 'the House of Judah'.

As Israel:

Gal 6:15-16  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

For those who 'walk according to this rule', they are the Israel of God...the rule of being IN Christ and Christ being IN us.

As Judah:

Rom 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rev 2:9 & 3:9  ...which say they are Jews, and are not
[this is a rebuke as they should be Jews but instead they lie and are unbelieving]

Jew is short for Judah...and many who are of another tribe of Israel refer to themselves as a Jew.

Excerpt from 'Lazarus and the Rich Man' paper (http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html):

To show how dominant Judah was in absorbing all these Tribes and passing on his name to them, look at Judges 17:7:

    "And there was a young man out of Bethlehem-judah of the family of Judah, who was a Levite..."

He was a Levite who was considered Juhah’s family.

The Priests, of course, did have to know their lineage or they would not be qualified for the Priesthood. Paul was an extremely well-educated man and therefore did know his lineage. So let’s see if this makes sense now. With all these things in mind, maybe we can better understand how these different names are used and applied to even the same person.

Paul, for example, was an Hebrew (Phil. 3:5) through Abraham (Rom. 11:1), and through Isaac, was an Israelite through Israel (Rom. 11:1), was a Benjamite through the Tribe of Benjamin (Rom. 11:1), from Tarsus of Cilicia (Acts 21:39), was educated in Jerusalem, was trained a Pharisee, under Gamaliel, spoke Hebrew & Greek (Acts 22:2-3), was also a Roman (Acts 16:37), and also calls himself A JEW (Acts 21:39).

So here’s what happened. In the Old Testament all Jews were Israelites, but not all Israelites were Jews. Like all Floridians are Americans, but not all Americans are Floridians. But, because Judah was always the dominant Tribe and Israel was once again gathered in Judea under Judah’s leadership, and because many of the individual Tribes became so mixed in inter- tribal and interracial marriage, many became designated as "Jews" in the New Testament. Even today, many known "Jews" may really be "Danites" or "Reubenites" etc. Many thinking themselves Gentiles could really be descendants of Israelites or Jews or other lines of Hebrews and not even know it..



The priests, though referred to as Jews after their return to exile, were of the lineage of Levite, therefore the House of Israel. The House of Judah was the lineage for the King, as Christ is. This role of King and Priest, of both Houses, is given to Christ as Joe showed from the book of Hebrews.

Priests were never kings, neither were kings ever priests [under the Old Covenant...though Melchizedek was both before the Old Covenant]. And like Melchizedek, the scriptures state that Christ would serve both positions under the New Convenant[Ps 110:4, Heb 5:6]. We also know that as He is, so will we be [1 John 3:2, 1 John 4:17]

1 Pet 2:9-10  ye [believers] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

Rev 5:9-10  Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


Christ and Peter make reference to us, the believers, as fulfilling these 2 positions in the [spiritual] Israel of God.

Hope this helps clear up any 'House of Israel' and 'House of Judah' questions/comments.


Thanks and sorry for the long post,

Marques
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Jody Edwards

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Re: New Covenant Question
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2009, 12:05:40 PM »

Just a short response.  From after reading Ray for years now, I believe the short answer to the question is found in John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.  Jesus fulfilled the penalty of sin required in the law at the cross (that they might have life) and he will fulfill the second portion (life more abundantly) by putting an end to sin by writing the law on the hearts of all men.  Of course, the second phase is a very long process that ends when the LOF age is completed.  The first part happened quickly at the cross so that no man would remain dead.  But upon resurrection for most of mankind, the sinning continues and will be dealt with in the LOF.  In the end, all men will have life (1st part of Jesus' ministry) and have it more abundantly (second part of Jesus' ministry).  When sin is dead, there will be no need for the law. 
Jody 
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