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His return? Some questions.
hillsbororiver:
johann writes;
[Origen 11 has expressed my sentiments too. Why is everyone suddenly so besotted with spritualizing everything in the fear of believing just a little something that might just be meant literally? What? Is nothing literal in the Scriptures anymore according to some of you??]
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Joe writes;
I can see your point, there does seem to be a few that believe the physical has no significance, but "faith without works (2041)" is what?
"Works" defined in the original Greek;
G2041
ἔργον
ergon
er'-gon
From ἔργω ergō (a primary but obsolete word; to work); toil (as an effort or occupation); by implication an act: - deed, doing, labour, work.
"Dead" (3498);
G3498
νεκρός
nekros
nek-ros'
From an apparently primary word νέκυς nekus (a corpse); dead (literally or figuratively; also as noun): - dead.
When you look at the fruits of the spirit you can see that they must be manifested externally (physically) as well as inwardly (spiritual) for them to be genuine.
It is one thing to sit at a keyboard and proclaim our love for mankind and quite another to get off of our backsides and actually do something for someone with no expectation of a returned favor or even gratitude.
I hope I am not coming across as harsh or judgemental because I assure you that is not my intention, I am questioning myself as much or more than anyone else.
Again, there is alot to potentially cover here, all comments are welcome and appreciated.
Peace,
Joe
orion77:
--- Quote from: Origen II ---The resurrection is a PHYSICAL THING that happens. I fear of heresy coming into our flock as people continuously try to spiritualize everything. Some people here seem closer and closer to doing that and even destroying the significance of the resurrection.
--- End quote ---
I do not wish to bring any heresy into this forum. The ressurrection is the crux of our belief. I know when this body dies, it will return to the dust from whence it came and the spirit will return to God.
(1Co 15:12) But if Christ is proclaimed, that He was raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is not a resurrection of the dead?
(1Co 15:13) But if there is not a resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised.
(1Co 15:14) But if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is worthless, and your faith is also worthless.
(1Co 15:15) And also we are found to be false witnesses of God, because we witnessed as to God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if the dead ones are not raised.
(1Co 15:16) For if the dead are not raised, Christ has not been raised.
(1Co 15:17) But if Christ has not been raised, your faith is foolish; you are still in your sins.
(1Co 15:18) And then those that fell asleep in Christ were lost.
(1Co 15:19) If we only have hope in Christ in this life, we are of all men most miserable.
(1Co 15:20) But now Christ has been raised from the dead; He became the firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.
(1Co 15:21) For since death is through man, also through a Man is a resurrection of the dead;
(1Co 15:22) for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
(1Co 15:23) But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruit; afterward those of Christ at His coming.
(1Co 15:24) Then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father, when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.
(1Co 15:25) For it is right for Him to reign until He puts all the hostile ones under His feet; Psa. 110:1
(1Co 15:26) the last hostile thing made to cease is death.
(1Co 15:27) For "He subjected all things under His feet;" but when He says that all things have been subjected, it is plain that it excepts Him who has subjected all things to Him. Psa. 8:6
(1Co 15:28) But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
(1Co 15:29) Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?
(1Co 15:30) Why are we also in danger every hour?
(1Co 15:31) Day by day I die, by your boasting, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(1Co 15:32) If according to man I fought with beasts in Ephesus, what is the profit to me if the dead are not raised? ("Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.") Isa. 22:13
(1Co 15:33) Do not be led astray; bad companionships ruin good habits.
(1Co 15:34) Be righteously awake, and do not sin; for some have ignorance of God. I speak to your shame.
(1Co 15:35) But someone will say, How are the dead raised? And with what body do they come?
(1Co 15:36) Foolish one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(1Co 15:37) And what you sow, you do not sow the body that is going to be, but a bare grain, (it may be of wheat, or of some of the rest),
(1Co 15:38) and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body.
(1Co 15:39) Not every flesh is the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fish, and another of birds.
(1Co 15:40) And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;
(1Co 15:41) one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
(1Co 15:42) So also the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
(1Co 15:43) It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
(1Co 15:44) It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:45) So also it has been written, "The" first "man", Adam, "became a living soul;" the last Adam a life-giving Spirit. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:46) But not the spiritual first, but the natural; afterward the spiritual.
(1Co 15:47) The first man was out of earth, earthy. The second Man was the Lord out of Heaven. Gen. 2:7
(1Co 15:48) Such as is the earthy man, such also are the earthy ones. And such as is the heavenly Man, such also are the heavenly ones.
(1Co 15:49) And as we bore the image of the earthy man, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
(1Co 15:50) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
(1Co 15:51) Behold, I speak a mystery to you: we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed.
(1Co 15:52) In a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet; for a trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
(1Co 15:53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co 15:54) But when this corruptible shall put on incorruption, and this mortal shall put on immortality, then will take place the Word that has been written, "Death was swallowed up in victory." Isa. 25:8
(1Co 15:55) "O death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?" Hos. 13:14
(1Co 15:56) Now the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law;
(1Co 15:57) but thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
(1Co 15:58) So that, my beloved brothers, you be firm, immovable, abounding in the work of the Lord always, knowing that your labor is not without fruit in the Lord.
My question is not concerning the resurrection, but the second coming all of christianity talks about, including the rapture, pretribulatiion, postribulation, literal 7 years and what not that goes along with His second coming. Same thing they are all looking for some antichrist to come prior to this. Just seems to be way too much confusion.
Most scriptures I have found do not back up what modern day christianity professes, concerning the second coming, but that He has come and is in us now.
Maybe I am way off track, but I know of a surety that He has come and is in me now, this I can not deny.
God bless,
Gary
Origen II:
I wasn't speaking towards you specifically, Orion, but in general.
However; as far as I've studied I've always thought that Christs return would in fact initiate the resurrection. So if Christ is here NOW then where's the resurrection?
I though the Holy Spirit was only a DEPOSIT...a SEAL...for the age to come.
EDIT:
I have always looked at it from this perspective. As of right now we are cocooned. Christ is manifested in us, and then when the time comes He will burst from us like a catepillar comes from its covering and then His wings will spread.
Andy_MI:
2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
orion77:
I know it was not meant for me specifically, Origen II. This subject at hand can go very deep and there are lots of misconceptions that we have been taught our whole lives.
I can only speak for what God has graciously shown me. The baptism of His Spirit was one of full immersion for me. Words can not describe it, seems unlawful to talk about it. When the scriptures speak of Christ in us, believe them, for He literally through the Spirit is. I have spoke too much of this subject. Through experience it is best for me, not to speak of such things. They are too wonderful and true for me to put into words, oftentimes bringing misunderstandings and bitter persecutions from people who perceive I am better than they. This is far from the truth.
Although, I must admit the carnal side yearns to be able to openly converse in this subject. Then again, there are some things best kept between ourselves and God.
God bless,
Gary
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