Spirit + Soul + Body vs. Spiritual Body + Soul +?

[NoviceBeliever]

I was reading an earlier thread "Spirit and Soul" and Ray's rebuttle to Kennedy.  I am left with some questions, and am hoping someone can point me in the right direction.

What I understand...

God breathes life (spirit) into every man, such as a power source to fuel our souls and body.  Without spirit we would be dead.

God gives of His Holy Spirit to those he wishes to understand His Truths.

The Soul is conciousness; where we see, hear, feel, think, understand, the seat of all emotion, feeling and comprehension.

When we are dead, the spirit leaves, returns to God and our souls are unconcious.

My questions;

Upon the second death, does God give spirit back to the dead and is this spirit then be his "Holy Spirit"?

Is the "Holy Spirit" only imparted after the Judgement in the Lake of Fire?

What about the Elect who have already been imparted with the "Holy Spirit" but are not part of the second death?

What will our "Spiritual Bodies" look like in terms of what we discern?

This is not all of my questions, but if you could help me find the right direction...NB

[mharrell08]

Hello Jill,

One thing to clear up is this: body + soul + spirit = person...that is not true. It's body + spirit = soul (which is what a person is).

Ezek 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek 18:20  The soul that sinneth, it shall die...

My questions;

Upon the second death, does God give spirit back to the dead and is this spirit then be his "Holy Spirit"?

The Lake of Fire is like the 2nd Death...in certain ways [You can read more of that here: http://bible-truths.com/lake5.html]. It is not a physical death, but a symbolic or spiritual one. So no one literally, physically dies in the Lake of Fire, therefore one's spirit does not leave them to go back to God.

Is the "Holy Spirit" only imparted after the Judgement in the Lake of Fire?

Isa 26:9  ...when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Acts 17:31  he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness...

Isa 45:22-23  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Phil 2:10  That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

1 Cor 12:3  ...no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

What about the Elect who have already been imparted with the "Holy Spirit" but are not part of the second death?

What will our "Spiritual Bodies" look like in terms of what we discern?

This is not all of my questions, but if you could help me find the right direction...NB

1 Pet 2:21  For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

2 Cor 4:14  Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Think about how Jesus was manifested when resurrected...he was able to manifest Himself as his former, physical body [John 20:26-29], able to mainfest in a way as to be unrecognizable [Luke 24, John 20:14], etc. He was able, always does, and will always do what is to the glory of God...which is what His Elect will do [...we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world [1 John 4:17].

Our spiritual bodies will be manifested for the glory of God in bringing many sons & daughters into righteousness/image of God. Any other exact terms, the scriptures do not go into, I believe.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Dave in Tenn]

Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Job 27:3 ...As long as my breath is yet whole within me And the spirit of Eloah is in my nostrils,...

Job 33:4  The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

Isa 42:5-7  Thus says God, the LORD, who created the heavens and stretched them out, who spread out the earth and what comes from it, who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it:

"I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness.

Marques put it:  Body + Spirit = Soul.  That's Ray too.  

We're much less complicated than Theologians put it. It's relaxing to know that we're not all divided up and worried about what the other parts are doing, and where they are going.  That's way too much multi-tasking.  

It's not religious gibberish to say 'Without Him we are nothing', because without Him we are nothing at all.  Nothing.  No Thing.

What will our "Spiritual Bodies" look like in terms of what we discern?

I take a little out of the Transfiguration event.  Though Peter, James, and John were 'seeing' a vision and not actually, literally Moses and Elijah, they did RECOGNIZE those in the vision as Moses and Elijah--surely without having ever laid eyes on so much as a drawing of them.  The simplest way to put it is that they just knew who they were looking at.  That's just a tidbit, and NOT something to build a doctrine around, however.  After all:  1Jn 3:2  My dear friends, we are now God's children, but it is not yet clear what we shall become...

[Marky Mark]

Upon the second death, does God give spirit back to the dead and is this spirit then be his "Holy Spirit"?

Installment XVI

HELL Part E--HADES & THE SECOND DEATH
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm

GOD'S ELECT MUST DIE THE SECOND DEATH THROUGH JUDGMENT

As a young man I used to think, horrors of horrors, God is going to throw people into a lake of fire which will be their SECOND death! It all seemed so frightful and final. Little did I know that we are all destined for some form of this same lake of fire/second death/judgment. Yes, God's Elect must also die the SECOND death.

It's all in Rom. 8:13:

"For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live.

Paul puts people into two options (based on God's foreknowledge):

OPTION ONE is for the wicked world: "For if you live after the flesh, you shall DIE..." Not only will they die, because "it is appointed to men once to die" (Heb. 9:27). But after they die, they will then come up in the resurrection to judgment, which is the "lake of fire/second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

OPTION TWO is for God's Elect: "...but if you through the Spirit do mortify [kill, put to death] the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Rom. 8:13). Therefore, in the resurrection, "...you shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). "...and he that has part in the first resurrection on such the second death has no power" (Rev. 20:6).

The second death is not a literal death of the physical body--neither for the Elect nor the Wicked. It is a death of the carnal mind, the heart of sin, the nature of sin. Our literal, physical flesh and blood does not die a second time. But all character flaws associated with sin must die: All believing Elect Saints of God must DIE TO THE FLESH OF THE CARNAL MIND. Death is the daily life of the Believer!

...........................................................................

Our spiritual bodies will be manifested for the glory of God in bringing many sons & daughters into righteousness/image of God. Any other exact terms, the scriptures do not go into, I believe.

Email to Ray.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4948.msg38663.html#msg38663



Greetings MR. Smith,

                 Hope all is well with you and yours Mr. Smith...

        I will keep this question as short as possible.  I have been wondering a lot lately about the spirit realm vs. the physical nature. Is there any clue in scripture as to what life will be like after the resurrection, meaning, if we are to be like Christ spiritually then what would be the purpose of the physical  ie;  the earth, the universe, or I guess anything of the physical - water, trees, dirt, mountains,etc.  Your reply would be most appreciated.

God bless,

Best regards
Mark


Dear Mark:  I could only speculate. We are told nothing.
Only that "Of the increase of His government and peace,
[welfare/prosperity] there shall be no end" & God shall be
"ALL in ALL" (Isa. 9:7 & I Cor. 15:28).

God be with you,
Ray





Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Jill,

Upon the second death, does God give spirit back to the dead and is this spirit then be his "Holy Spirit"?

Is the "Holy Spirit" only imparted after the Judgement in the Lake of Fire?

What about the Elect who have already been imparted with the "Holy Spirit" but are not part of the second death?

Rev 20:6  Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

The Elect will have been born into the family of God at the first resurrection and they will be spirit.  It will be His Holy Spirit that makes them sons of God ("nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." Luke 20:36).  But it will be their own human spirit that makes up their personality and character too.     

John 3:5  Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
v. 6  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

As spirit beings the Elect will be like Christ, this next passage explains that just as Christ was totally in-tune with the Father, so will the Elect be when they have "life" and reign with Christ.

John 5:24  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
v. 25  Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
v. 26  For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
v. 27  and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
v. 28  Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
v. 29  and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
v. 30  I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

So during the judgment that follows the first resurrection the world will be judged by the Elect, who are ruling with Christ, this is the Lake of fire.  When the world is raised God will take away their blindness and "pour out of My Spirit on all flesh," so that they can learn righteousness (Isa. 26:9).

Act 2:17  "And it shall come to pass in the last days2250 [G2250 hēmera - a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context): - age, + alway, (mid-) day (by day, [-ly]), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years] says God,  That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh...
       
mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Fester]

I too am trying to understand all of this.

Psalms 11:5  (KJV)
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his [God] soul hateth.

Therefore, God has a soul.

If "Body + Spirit = Soul" is true, and God is Spirit and has a Soul, logic would necessitate that He also has a Body.

We know we must become a 'dead soul' in order to become a 'resurrected soul' in the image of our Saviour who has a soul (and a body?).      

The sum of God's word is the truth.  Does anyone know how Ray incorporates this verse, and how he handles what it implies in his teachings?

I am confused.

Thanks!

[Kat]

Hi Fester,

We know we must become a 'dead soul' in order to become a 'resurrected soul' in the image of our Saviour who has a soul (and a body?).

I'm trying to understand your question, it seems to be does a spirit being/Christ have a body?  Well spirit being have a spirit body.  They are not just spirit energy, though invisible to the human eye, they do have a body.

1Co 15:40  There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies. But the glory of the heavenly is truly different, and that of the earthly different;

It seems soul means a living creature, human or spirit and is something that has a form or being.  Here are a few more verses where the God of the OT speaks of "My soul."

Isa 1:14  Your New Moons and your appointed feasts
      My soul hates;
      They are a trouble to Me,
      I am weary of bearing them.

Jer 6:8  Be instructed, O Jerusalem, Lest My soul be alienated from thee, Lest I make thee a desolation, a land not inhabited.

Jer 32:41  Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will assuredly plant them in this land, with all My heart and with all My soul.'

Hope these Scriptures are helpful in what you are looking for.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

Do these translations make the verse in question any more clear? Who is the one that hates? God? Or the righteous people.


Douay-Rheims Bible   
Psalm 11 5 The Lord trieth the just and the wicked: but he that loveth iniquity hateth his own soul.

Bible in Basic English   
Psalm 11 5 The Lord puts the upright and the sinner to the test, but he has hate in his soul for the lover of violent acts.

GWT
paslm 11 5 The LORD tests righteous people, but he hates wicked people and the ones who love violence.



Peace...Mark

[Akira329]

Do these translations make the verse in question any more clear? Who is the one that hates? God? Or the righteous people.

Hey Mark!
God does the hating in that verse.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Pro 6:16  These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17  A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18  An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19  A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Antaiwan

[tinknocker]

Here's a description of how Christ's spiritual body appeared to John;

Rev 1:12  I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me. When I turned I saw seven gold lampstands,
Rev 1:13  and among the lampstands was One like the Son of Man, dressed in a long robe, and with a gold sash wrapped around His chest.
Rev 1:14  His head and hair were white like wool--white as snow, His eyes like a fiery flame,
Rev 1:15  His feet like fine bronze fired in a furnace, and His voice like the sound of cascading waters.

What's interesting is John knew who it was instantly

Tom

[aqrinc]

Hi Mark & Akira329,

Here is what appears to be the best definition of the verse.

Psa 11:5 (BISHOPS)
God wyll trye the righteous: but his soule abhorreth the vngodly, and hym that delighteth in wickednes.

(Merriman)
Main Entry: ab·hor
Pronunciation: \əb-ˈhȯr, ab-\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ab·horred; ab·hor·ring
Etymology: Middle English abhorren, from Latin abhorrēre, from ab- + horrēre to shudder — more at horror
Date: 15th century
: to regard with extreme repugnance : loathe

synonyms see hate

— ab·hor·rer  \-ˈhȯr-ər\ noun

Main Entry: loathe
Pronunciation: \ˈlōth\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): loathed; loath·ing
Etymology: Middle English lothen, from Old English lāthian to dislike, be hateful, from lāth
Date: 12th century
: to dislike greatly and often with disgust or intolerance : detest

synonyms see hate

— loath·er noun

george.

[Marky Mark]

Thank-you Antaiwan and George.


Mark

[Ninny]

Hey guys,
I'm like all of you. Always learning!!  I have been reading the LOF studies over again for the last few weeks..This will be at least the 3rd or 4th time over the past 4 years..I think there is so much to learn..when I start trying to understand something, I go back and read it again! Someday maybe my understanding will be perfect..in this life?? Whew! It's hard to say..but what a trip this journey is!! I pray that we will all gain wisdom and understanding! The wisdom is what I cry out for!
This is a great thread, Jill! Great input, guys!!
Kathy

[NoviceBeliever]

Thanks to everyone!  Been a busy and somewhat painful couple of days...have not had much time to read all responses, but thank you!!!! I am going back to the drawing board. Jill

[daywalker]

I too am trying to understand all of this.

Psalms 11:5  (KJV)
The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his [God] soul hateth.

Therefore, God has a soul.

If "Body + Spirit = Soul" is true, and God is Spirit and has a Soul, logic would necessitate that He also has a Body.

We know we must become a 'dead soul' in order to become a 'resurrected soul' in the image of our Saviour who has a soul (and a body?).      

The sum of God's word is the truth.  Does anyone know how Ray incorporates this verse, and how he handles what it implies in his teachings?

I am confused.

Thanks!

I think the verse you quoted is just a classic example of how God likens Himself to humans in order to help us understand. Just like in many verses which talk about God's "hands" and "feet" and "eyes" and even His "backside"  Of course, God is NOT a man, so therefore He doesn't have any of these human parts. But He uses these as symbols and analogies so we can understand what He's trying to tell us.

Another classic example is:

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent


Notice how God created the heavens through His "Spirit"--this is a symbol of great intimacy and unity and passion, which is why the heavens are so beautiful to look at and amazing to study. The heavens are a sign of God's Power and Authority and Awesomeness.

However, He created Satan with His "hands"--symbolizing that He held him out at a distance... This was not a creation out of God's heart, but it was a 'necessary evil'... Not something God was passionate about doing. There is NO unity between God and Satan; hence they are Adversaries.


Hope that helps a little. Peace, Out

Daywalker.