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journey to confusion - my letter to Ray
carol v:
Don't know why I sent this to poor Ray. Last thing he needs is another long email. Should have just gotten it off my chest here. So here it is -- my testimony.
Dear Ray,
I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.
When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.
I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.
When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.
Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.
But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others. First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.
The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.
One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.
The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.
Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.
Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic? So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.
I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.
I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.
Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.
The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.
Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.
THEN THIS:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm
Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.
I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.
Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?
How can I pray?
I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff. OH NO. I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?
OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.
Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?
After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.
Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?
Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.
Hey God. Who do you answer to? I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.
I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.
I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.
This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.
God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?
Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.
I still love you though Ray. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.
Carol V
Dennis Vogel:
Just got off the phone with Ray about this email. Ray will be answering soon.
Samson:
Dear Carol,
Thankyou for your candid and straight from the Heart testimony, I really enjoyed it. All of us, that most definitely includes me, as well, have a war going on inside ourselves, a carnal war caused by our fleshly nature, the flesh is enmity with God. Regarding who is of the Elect, I don't know, we won't really know until we endure to the end of our lives(Age). I'm satisfied to leave that in God's hands. I've learned many things from studying Ray's material, sometimes I don't grasp all of it, sometimes I don't retain all of it and sometimes I don't remember all of it. Also, By the Grace of God, most of us haven't done anything as horrific as what you describe the Woman doing to her infant. By the Grace of God we are not like Adolph Hitler, Charles Manson, Joseph Stalin, Jeffrey Dahmer and many other individuals who committed horrific acts. Under the exact circumstances and causes, we would have been like the above.
I'm approaching this learning and knowledge of everything, Spirit-Wise, as a personal journey, not concerned whether I can argue better or know more or think I'm more righteous, because I'm refuse, garbage or fleshly filth that only God has the power to clean up when he wills it. Do I have the desire to act better, think better and treat others better, of course, but we can't do it on our own, if we could, we would have done it by now. Jesus tells us to Love Our Enemies and pray for those who persecute us, no one can follow that instruction without God causing us to do so, a simple Scripture like that, easy to understand, but I never met anyone in person who practices that. The fact you are here and desire to know the Truth with the right attitude, tells me that God is working with you in this Age. I've talked to many people throughout the course of my life and they don't even care to find out what's true or false. Apparently God hasn't even caused them to even care enough to find out. When Pontius Pilate asked Jesus: " What is Truth," did he even really care or was that just an excuse that no one can really find it or it's only relative. Our Sufferings, Trials and Tribulations are part of the process we have to endure, in this Age and/or the Age to come before we can become part of God's Spiritual Family.
I'm sorry if there's anything that I have done to cause you distress, I didn't mean it. Sometimes in life, I get confused about God's plan and purpose and it seems like some kind of nightmare, I will eventually wake up from. Anyway, hope to here more from you, hope your migraines go away, don't know how your able to tolerate such repetitive pain. Hang in there and continue to dine at this Spiritual table provided by God through Ray.
Kind Regards, Samson.
bluzman:
Dear Carol,
I am very, very sorry to hear about those migraines. One of my sons suffers terribly from what the medical people
term ' cluster headaches'. He has suffered with then for a number of years now. He is a grown man, tough as nails,
but when he has an attack, it instantly disables him and he cries like a baby. I cannot hardly bear the thought of him getting the next one.
The next thing on the agenda for him is to try to get oxygen prescribed so he can lay down with the oxygen mask and rest.
Maybe oxygen will be of some help for you. No one can feel another person's pain, but I can understand a little of yours.
God Bless,
Ches
Dennis Vogel:
[Ray's reply]
Dear Carol: It's Thursday, 3:41 a.m., I can't sleep, so I thought I would answer your email before dozens on the Forum give your their version of wisdom that will solve all of your problems in one simple reading. I will make some comments in your email, as you raise several interesting dilemmas that concern us all...
Dear Ray,
I hope you are doing better and don't mean to add to your workload. I've come full circle to total confusion.
COMMENT: I am okay. Not great, but okay. I haven't had a really good day this year, but I am not depressed nor discouraged, nor confused.
When I discovered the Lake of Fire 5 years ago -- I thought I had been let inside of the most incredible spiritual truths I had ever known. I devoured every word you wrote and every audio produced. I read all of Mike's stuff too. I even had a slight notion that I might actually be one of the elect because of these great secrets of scripture God was showing me.
COMMENT: And well you may be. My Lake of Fire series is still 99.44% the same as it was ten years ago when I began writing it. There are "most incredible spiritual truths" in this series. Not because I wrote them, but because they are SCRIPTURE.
I devoted hours and hours to study, prayer, participating in the forum and self-flagellating myself to humility. I prayed for truth. I beat myself up for the slightest sin.
COMMENT: I can say "ditto," except that I do not "beat myself up for the slightest sin" anymore. You are where I was over forty years ago (thirty years before we started bible-truths.com). Both Dennis and I can identify with what you are writing and feeling. You are not alone in this strange journey of the human experience.
When you and Mike fell out. I continued to read you both for a very long time. I eventually came down with you on the Christ Made Sin thing, but it was a long road to get there. I was fellowshipping with Mike's group on Sunday afternoons on Skype and participating in your forum.
COMMENT: It may come as a shock for most to know that doctrine was not the most important reason that I took Mike's material or reference to it off of my site. I think Mike wanted a following. I think he wanted to be thought of as a great spiritual leader. I think he though of himself as playing second fiddle to me and/or bible-truths.com. But what he didn't fully realize was that his notoriety came not through his site, but mine. And yes, at that same time and immediately following our separation, some of his new "revelations" were among the most damnable heresy and blasphemy of Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit that I have ever encountered in my life (IMO). There was no way that I could continue to support such utter unscriptural swill. It did not take years or "a long road to get there" for me. But then again, God had already grounded us in the Truths of God's Word. I did not need to go back and be re-grounded.
Then Mike took the Christ made sin thing and changed it to the Christ is carnal thing. Maybe he was saying that all along but to me, he hadn't. Many of us quit fellowshipping with Mike then. His website closed down because those running it disagreed with his teaching as well.
COMMENT: I have nearly fifty pages of notes on the theme: "Was Jesus Made Sin," which I will put into a full article (God willing). The teaching that Jesus Christ was the very personification of sin itself, is the most damnable piece of heresy next to "23 Minutes in Hell" by Bill Weise (which I am also writing a full article on) that I have read in my entire 68 year life!
But a few of us started our own skype fellowship and invited others. First there was an endless argument about the new man/old man that ended with a split between those two debaters.
COMMENT: That is always a potential problem, Carol. All too many hear and learn a few basic truths of God and His Word and then fancy themselves teachers and spiritual leaders. I don't know anything about Mike's site closing down, but I do know that Dennis and I have had to close down some site pages that have plagiarized my material and then added to it their personal touch of heresy. There are all to many who are:
"Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm" (I Tim. 1:7).
The group decided to study Revelation together. Ha ha ha ha. I guess you know how that went.
COMMENT: Revelation is not a book for beginners and spiritual minors.
One of us wanted to study the man of perdition being a real man. The rest of us didn't. I won't go on about what all the problems were but I was receiving pages and pages of emails every day of endless scriptural arguments.
The forum was no better. I used to go on the forum and actually offer a lot of answers to questions. I was under the perception that I actually knew something. Most of it was based on stuff I had learned through you, Mike and Andrew Jukes.
COMMENT: Our bible-truths Forum serves a good and useful purpose, but trust me, THERE IS A REASON WHY WE DON'T ALLOW PERSONAL TEACHING OF PERSONAL DOCTRINES on our Forum.
Then one of our fellowship members rebelled at the man-of-perdition-is-real thing and quit. We were all ready to bail but he was first. But before quitting he read your Two Towers papers, and declared you a heretic. Then he read some Jukes and declared him a heretic, Since my favorite book was The Types of Genesis, his calling Jukes a heretic too was even more confusing.
COMMENT: About the only real criticism I have received from my Towers paper have come from conspiracy theorists, who have bought into the idea that God had nothing to do with this disaster, and that the US Government brought down these towers by means of demolition. I never went into whether anyone in our Government knew in advance that this attack was coming, but to suggest that the Towers fell because had demolition bombs planted throughout the buildings starting at ground level and even below, is utter nonsense. I saw the buildings fall on live television with my own eyes, and they did not fall because the foundations were bombed out from under them, THEY FELL FROM THE TOP DOWN at the point of impact by the jetliners!
Every teacher I had listened to was a heretic? So when I was praying and praying and praying and praying for years for truth, I received heresy? Cool. I am the strong delusion. Thanks so much God.
COMMENT: We ALL were taught heresy, Carol. If we never went into Babylon the Great (Mother of spiritual harlots), God could not have called us OUT! We should "thank God," but not sarcastically.
Listen to me, Carol: I see you now as being further along in your understanding than you were years ago. Don't let the reality of this worlds sins and evils discourage you from holding on to God's great spiritual truths and plan for our eternal destiny.
I too have prayed hard (especially these past ten years since staring bible-truths) to get and keep sin out of my life. This along with helping others see the Truth of God's Word, IS MY LIFE, MY ONLY LIFE. So what "thanks" from God do I receive? A miserable and painful disease that is rotting my very body out from under me? Is that how I should be looking at my trial? It could be many times worse. The pain could be many times worse. I could have died last year already. My family medical doctor (Dr. Alin Sherman) told me three weeks ago that he never in a million years thought that he would see me alive in July 2009. I'm still here, and I'm still trying to do God's work. I don't know what next week or next month holds for me. I am in constant pain, and I don't sleep well at all, and I am extremely enervated and exhausted most of the time. So should I too say: "Thanks so much God?" Should I follow the advice of Job's wife and "CURSE God and die?" I don't think so. I am in this for the long haul. I had rather be like Job when he corrected his wife:
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive E-V-I-L? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Carol: you are now "receiving EVIL at the hand of God." Joseph, David, Daniel, Paul, they all "received EVIL at the hand of God." We are no different. Don't let it discourage you or destroy you. Throw yourself on God's mercy and He will give you peace. In my present condition and trial, I can't tell you the satisfaction I receive from those who are praying for me; supporting me; and suffering right along with me. It brings tears to my eyes, not self pity, tears of joy.
God is calling out a people a "chosen Elect FEW," and at least part of that is being accomplished through this ministry. How great is that? Does that not deserve a little (or maybe a lot) of suffering? Should I not have to put my own money where my mouth is concerning this spiritual walk with God? Don't let anyone write you off, Carol, just because your trial seems greater than you can presently bear. Don't forget the words of Paul:
2Co 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
God can make you much stronger through this trial, Carol. Fair weather Christians are a dime a dozen as they say, but what about in times of adversity?
Pro 24:10 If you faint in the day of adversity, thy strength is small.
This is the time for your victory, Carol, not your defeat.
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