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journey to confusion - my letter to Ray

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Dennis Vogel:
[continued from part 1]

I just couldn't stand the arguing anymore.

I became unable to study or read the Bible at all. Apparently there are not two people on the planet that agree. The endless scriptural arguments made my brain freeze.

Who are these elect? I can't find them. Who in the heck are the members of the body of Christ and how am I supposed to be a part of them? Ain't any in my West Texas town. All I know are hell-believers.

COMMENT:  There are members of the body of Christ on our Forum, Carol.  Maybe not all, but they are there, and they will all be praying for you just as they have been praying for me.

The only person I ever met in my 5 years in this journey since the Lake of Fire series that I thought was probably elect was Willard Rogers. A kind and gentle soul to me but I know he was a friend you had a falling out with so your opinion is probably different.

COMMENT:  I assure you that my "falling out" as you put it with Williard was not based on "opinion."

Last time I read Matthew I had no clue what a single word of it meant anymore. Gibberish. I used to read Matthew thinking I had a clue. I was just so-o-o-o spiritual.

THEN THIS:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-07-27-baby-killed_N.htm

Now one thing I believe in is God's sovereignty but I have always had a problem with your explanations of God not forcing us to sin but simply creating us to sin. Before I started reading the Lake of Fire, my problem was that people gave God credit for the good stuff and no responsibility for the bad.

I called it my "unanswered prayer" argument. Don't all victims of rape, murder, kidnapping, war and violence pray? Aren't we all praying in the trenches. If God chooses not to answer prayer, doesn't that make Him responsible. If God doesn't answer the prayers of the victims then isn't God also guilty of the crime.

COMMENT:  Actually, not all victims of rape, murder or kidnapping, etc. pray.  And yes, God is responsible for His entire creation, but God is guilty of NO CRIME.

Ray, there is a woman in San Antonio that has decapitated and eaten the brain of her infant. I feel nothing but overwhelming pity and sadness for her. Where is God?

How can I pray?

COMMENT:  This is something you will have to work out with God.  I am aware of and have been for a long time, the evils of this world and the sins of humanity, yet I pray constantly.  With you, the stark reality of how sick humans can get, was brought home by this recent tragedy of a woman killing her infant.  With me, I think the reality of man's inhumanity struck home many many years ago when I was watching a movie in which some mobsters took this man captive and took an electric drill and started drilling holes through his knees.  The reality of that evil stuck with me for a long time.  I don't have a complete answer for such intense evil in God's wisdom, but I yet hope to find the answer in the Scriptures.  

I have been walking around for years kicking myself because of the stupidest stuff.  OH NO.  I wrote a school excuse saying my son was sick when he actually came home way too late last night and is just tired. Will God ever excuse this awful lie?

OH NO. I dropped the F-bomb in front of the teenagers again when that 18-wheeler was slipping into my lane. Will God ever excuse me. What an awful, awful person I am. Terrible, terrible. Just a wad of carnal flesh am I.

Well when does God have to answer. I spent decades arguing with God over the hell doctrine before reading the Lake of Fire and now I'm arguing with him again. When does God have to answer?

COMMENT:  We cannot judge God, Carol.  We may question what He does and how He does it, but we can't find Him guilty of any crime.  God is not a criminal.  And yes, we are "a wad of carnal flesh," but God does not condemn us for this:

      Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I really hope you will be able to attend our November Bible Conference, as it will be talking all about YOU.  That is all about all of you who attend.  I am going to talk about just such things as to whether we should always be walking around with a cloud over our heads as though we are not worthy to even approach God in our needs.  I will be talking about "FORGETTING the past..." as Paul instructed us.

After 5 decades of migraine that have controlled my life I was finally screaming at God a few weeks ago to either heal me or kill me. I can't take it anymore. He did neither so I went for new meds and started even another natural treatment plan too. If the country collapses and I lose air-conditioning and medication I will eat the oleander. It will be self-euthanasia and not suicide. I will not make it. Is death by oleander really painful? I'm picturing foaming at the mouth with horrific gut pain -- all better than migraine.

COMMENT:  My wife has had RSD (regional sympathetic dystrophy syndrome) for about ten years now.  When she worked for the Police Chief of North Miami Beach for years on the computer, she developed carpel tunnel.  She had a simple out-patient operation, but the pain never left, but rather intensified. After visiting many experts she was finally diagnosed correctly.  The pain is constant and extremely intense.  She would have had her arm amputated years ago, except that it doesn't solve the pain problem. It moves through the body--to her legs (she has been in a wheelchair more often than not in recent weeks, her breasts, her other arm and hand, her face, and her head.  She too has intense headaches for months at a time.  At one time she took a half dozen medications at the same time (headache pills that cost $16 per pill).  Twelve thousand dollars a year in Oxycontin (up to 300 mgs a day).  She has cut down considerably on strong pain killers in recent years, and just endures more pain.  She sleeps normally twenty to forty minutes a night.  But she does then sleep sometimes a couple of hours during the day, maybe averaging 2-3 hours of sleep daily.  Yet she feels bad that she can't do more for me and my condition, when in reality she does everything for me.  She prepares all my special meals and juices, along with putting together the 12 to 14 groups of supplements I take daily.  When she's around people, she smiles and no one knows there is a thing wrong with her.  My daughter is bi-polar.  Dennis' son is bi-polar.  My wife has contemplated suicide many times in recent years.  Her daughter is the main reason she hasn't done it.  Life is hard.  I am not a stranger to pain and suffering.  But this too will pass.

Who the hell knows the truth? Where are the elect? Why can no one agree? Why is the Word so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure?

COMMENT:  I KNOW THE TRUTH, and others do as well.  We don't need to agree on every single issue in life in order to know the truth.  Even Paul and Barnabas had a huge disagreement at one time in their ministry.  The "Elect" are made up of just such people.  And the Word is not "so convoluted in translation that the meaning is completely obscure."  Except for the words "hell" and "eternal," there are very few convoluted translations.  Nonetheless, it does take the Spirit of God to understand spiritual things.

Why am I kicking myself about still dropping the F-bomb when there is a woman in San Antonio who is so sadly, tragically ill that she would decapitate her infant and eat the poor thing's brains and a few toes. Yes, she ate some toes too.

Hey God. Who do you answer to?  I used to say, just like you taught me Ray, that it's one big character building journey here on earth as God creates us into His image. But GOD. There is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains.

I can't read the Word. I can't pray for help for anything. I still believe but it is surrounded by complete confusion.

COMMENT:  God is fully aware of this woman in Texas who killed her child, but God doesn't answer to anyone.  And God is not on trial at the bar of human justice.  For sure that woman's child is no longer suffering, and will never again suffer like that for all eternity.  Our lack of total understanding does not qualify us to judge God or His ways.  One day we will know all the truth concerning all things, and the time is coming when "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).  All these evils are coming to an end, Carol.  Don't be discouraged.  God will see you through this.

I only go to your forum to check on your health now. There they all are, arguing the fine points of scripture as if they have a clue. I have taken up gardening and arguing with God again. I don't understand. And frankly, I am so tired of listening to and arguing myself about the fine points of scripture.

COMMENT:  Well, I'm afraid I have to agree with you on some of this, albeit, I think I do understand a great deal of what God is doing and why.

This 'elect' thing is laughable. I actually started laughing out loud this morning at myself for ever thinking I was part of the elect at one time. That is so funny.

God, there is a woman in San Antonio eating her baby's brains and toes. Did we really need that?

Makes me want to drop a bunch of F-bombs and go check my tomatoes.

COMMENT:  No, Carol, "this elect thing" is not laughable.  It may be laughable that some of the greatest heretics who ever lived fancied themselves among God's elect, however, that does not negate the fact that there was and is a chosen Elect few in whom God has placed His Holy Spirit.

I still love you though Ray. Still send money every month for the web site. But after 5 years of study, I understand less than ever.

Carol Vandiver
Sweetwater, TX

COMMENT:  Well, Thank You, Carol, and I love you too.  Actually you don't "understand less than ever."  You are merely more discouraged than ever, but this too shall pass.  And don't let anyone judge you regarding your discouragement.  Many proud and boastful believers have fallen by the wayside when the shoe is on the other foot as they say.  I thank God and all who have been praying for me, that after three days and three nights in the heart of the earth a year ago this month, I have not been depressed or discouraged since.  I have no choice--I must be strong for all those who have come to a knowledge of the truth through my ministry.   I cannot let terminal cancer or anything else discourage me from remaining faithful to God and His word.  Your salvation is closer now, Carol, than when you first believed.  

This is no time to throw in the towel.  It is now 6:15 and the sun is coming up over Mobile bay.  It's a new day.  It can be a bright shiny day, if we allow the spirit of God to uphold us in our trials.  This is not some strange new thing that has come upon you, Carol.  It's just that you are more honest than most who will be reading your email.  Return to God and He will return to you.  I'm praying for you, Carol.  Others will likewise be praying for you.

May God be with you always,

Ray

Ninny:
Dennis,
I have to say I have fought back the tears while reading this...and for Carol..the pain of life is so real. We all have pain and discouragement in different degrees. What Ray has said in response is packed full of years of painfully gained wisdom and understanding..thank you for placing this here for us all to read. It kind of hits home for me and I know for others as well.
Kathy

arion:
I can add nothing to Ray's reply or even offer any wisdom to you Carol other than this.

Don't doubt in the darkness what God has given you in the light.


I learned one or two nuggets from my former teachers in Babylon and this is one of them.  And I think it's true.

hillsbororiver:
Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.

This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.

Peace,

Joe

tinknocker:

--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on August 13, 2009, 05:21:22 PM ---Isolation and despair meet empathy and hope.

This topic really underlines the bittersweet experience that is this earthly journey.

Peace,

Joe



--- End quote ---

Amen to that Joe
There was a time of about 5 years I suffered cluster head aches. But I haven't had one in 15 years that I can remember. I do recall in the mist of them wanting to end it all by whatever means possible. Good thing I had disposed of my handguns  ;)
Carol I also will be praying for you for relief in the head aches and in God providing peace and clarity in your walk. I also check in with Mike and was very distraught when Ray and Mike ceased to fellowship with each other. I also remember Willard's gentle spirit and miss it. In all the confusion I hold on to this verse.

Proverbs 3:5-6
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own understanding; 6  think about Him in all your ways, and He will guide you on the right paths.

And this verse has been my security blanket;
Psalms 30:5
For His anger lasts only a moment, but His favor, a lifetime. Weeping may spend the night, but there is joy in the morning.

Blessings
Tom

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