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Author Topic: the sonship  (Read 3736 times)

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bible man

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the sonship
« on: August 16, 2009, 10:57:18 AM »

Hello, I have a radio hot topic a gentlemen decided to all and challenge me saying Jesus didnt become the son of God until the holyspirit dcended like a dove. He tried to justify saying "today" I have begotten you. I believe he was born the son of God  I wanted to get insight from the forum God bles
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Kat

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2009, 11:11:44 AM »


Well what does the Scripture actually say?

Mat 3:16  When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
Mat 3:17  And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

You need to nail them down on what is actually in the Scripture, what they say is there does not matter.  No mention of begotten here, the Father was just reiterating the fact at his occasion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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bible man

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2009, 11:25:13 AM »

I agree Kat  so do you agree  he was born the son of GOD?
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aqrinc

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2009, 11:48:34 AM »


Hi bibleman,

Here is the answer, from the one who was sent ahead to witness of His Coming into the world. This is also a your Witness to (Mat 3:16-17).

Also for an indepth study see: WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

Joh 1: 1-30 (ASV)
1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.

3  All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5  And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not.

6  There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John.
7  The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him.
8  He (John) was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light.

9  There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world.
10  He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not.
11  He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not.

12  But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13  who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth.

1:15  John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me.

16  For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace.
17  For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
19  And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou?
20  And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ.

21  And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No.
22  They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?

23  He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet.
24  And they had been sent from the Pharisees.

25  And they asked him, and said unto him, Why then baptizest thou, if thou art not the Christ, neither Elijah, neither the prophet?
26  John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not,
27  even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose.

28  These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29  On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world!
30  This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is become before me: for he was before me.

Keep the Faith brother.

george. :)


« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 11:54:18 AM by aqr »
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Kat

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 12:24:45 PM »


Hi Bible man,

Gal 4:4  But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

This Scripture tells me that Christ was considered the Father's Son from His creation, not just from His physical birth.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 01:40:14 PM by Kat »
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Marky Mark

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 01:08:50 PM »

It seems a rather silly notion to think that Jesus was not, or is not, or will not, be of the Father.Jesus was a created Spiritual being who came forth from the Father long before His[Jesus] own creation.I would have to believe that just as a child comes out of a parent in the flesh, wouldn't you also have to believe that Jesus also came out of the Father,as a Spiritual Son also? Are they not O-N-E?



Rom 8:3 For what was impossible to the law, in which it was infirm through the flesh, did God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sin's flesh and concerning sin, He condemns sin in the flesh,

Mat 27:43 He has confidence in God. Let Him rescue him now, if He is wanting him, for he said that 'God's Son am I!'"  

Joh 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."

Joh 3:17 For God does not dispatch His Son into the world that He should be judging the world, but that the world may be saved through Him."

Joh 3:35 The Father is loving the Son and has given all into His hand."

Mat 8:29 And lo! they cry, saying, "What is it to us and to Thee, Son of God! Didst Thou come here to torment us before the season?

Mar 5:7 and, crying with a loud voice, he is saying, "What is it to me and to Thee, Jesus, Son of God Most High! I am adjuring Thee by God: Not me shouldst Thou be tormenting!"

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the evangel of Jesus Christ, Son of God,



Peace...Mark
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 02:05:48 PM »

Php 2:5-11 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also, Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,  nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity, and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."


I want to stick totally to scripture in defining/describing the nature of God, including the Sonship.  Whenever we venture into 'theology-speak' we step into confusion.  But even WITH scripture, we cannot know God in the flesh, thus no language or imagining is sufficient to fully capture Him. 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 02:27:44 PM »


Hi Bible man,

In the parable of the wicked vinedressers, God is talking about His Son being sent, He was speaking about His Son before He was born on earth.

Mar 12:6  Therefore still having one Son, His beloved, He also sent Him to them last, saying, "They will respect My Son.'

Another Scriptures where God talks about sending His Son, meaning He's sending whom is already His son.

1John 4:10  In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The Scripture the caller was using, does state "today I have begotten You."  But He had already stated "You ARE My Son" first, then states "today I have begotten You."

Heb 5:5  So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him:
       "You are My Son,
       Today I have begotten You.

Psa 2:7  "I will declare the decree:
       The LORD has said to Me,
       "You are My Son,
       Today I have begotten You.

All the translations put Him as His Son 'before' He states "today I have begotten You," none of them have it turned around like your caller says.

Rotherham
Heb 5:5 Thus, also the Christ, glorified not Himself to become a high-priest, but He that spake unto Him—My Son, art, Thou, I, this day, have begotten thee;  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Phil3:10

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 02:38:39 PM »

Dave in Tenn,
I love the way you answered with scripture the nature of GOD and HIS SON. You are so right that we in the flesh have not a clue as to the greatness and power of GOD and HIS SON. No language or imagining can even begin to describe that nature.
I do think that this is GOD'S will right now. However, the promise that we shall know HIM in the future is what keeps me getting up each day. We can all try, we can all grow daily in HIS nurture and admonition, we can all seek to know HIM, and HE will give to each of us only what HE knows we are capable of discerning.
I do feel the worst enemy of GOD is religion and as you so aptly put it 'theology-speak'. GOD made us imperfect, flawed, and fleshly and HE did it in order to one day show all mankind HIS true greatness and power.
If we could all learn to just look to HIM, HIS SON, and HIS WORD and not the traditions of man we will all grow to understand that it is only HIM.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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Marky Mark

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 03:29:59 PM »

Php 2:5-11 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also, Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,  nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity, and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."


I want to stick totally to scripture in defining/describing the nature of God, including the Sonship.  Whenever we venture into 'theology-speak' we step into confusion. 
Quote
But even WITH scripture, we cannot know God in the flesh
, thus no language or imagining is sufficient to fully capture Him. 


Hello Dave.
I think that the more we read Scripture, the more and the better we come to know our God. The better we learn to obey God, the more we begin to love our God.With that love we then begin to trust God all the more.With this trust and worship our Father begins to show us who and what He is . He is above all else, a God of L-O-V-E. :)

I like this email to Ray on who God is.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3593.0.html

Dear Lisa:
    Yes, I am pretty sure about things that I am pretty sure about.
    Somebody MADE US!  I'm sure of that? Whoever it was is fearfully powerful and smart.
    To me, it would take a "God" to create us and the universe.  So that's what I call that
    powerful, intelligent, wise, and I believe LOVING Creator.  I call Him 'GOD'!
    Now then, the $64,000 question. Is that all we know about the Creator God? He made us.
    Anything else?  Yes, there is a lot more. God is obviously a great artist--just look around.
    I like to look at my cats (especially when they were kittens, but even now, they often play like kittens even though they are adults).  They have so much fun. They make up silly games all the time. They can make a game out of almost any movable object. And they are loving, and sweet, and kind. My favorite, Stumpy, especially loves to be held and hugged every morning. I do that while I read emails.  I learn a lot about God through my cats. God made my cats.  What kind of a God would make such marvelous animals as kittens and puppies? 
    Next, let's get crazy.  What if this Great Creator God actually wanted to give us some kind of an insight into the reason why He created us?  Would't that be something?  Well, I believe He has. I believe what we call the Holy Scriptures are more than just a man-made collection of myths and fabulous stories of old. I don't have time to tell you why I believe this, but I do.  The knowledge that  these books contain is unfathomable and unattainable.  We could study them for thousands of years, and still keep learning more and more.  Maybe it would behoove you to just keep reading the things that I write about, and maybe you too will become a true Believer in our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    God be with you,
    Ray
 
 


Peace...Mark
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mharrell08

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 05:25:26 PM »

I want to stick totally to scripture in defining/describing the nature of God, including the Sonship.  Whenever we venture into 'theology-speak' we step into confusion.  But even WITH scripture, we cannot know God in the flesh, thus no language or imagining is sufficient to fully capture Him


Great point Dave...we know The Father through the Son, but only in part...only by what has been revealed to each person, in their own order.


John 14:7-11 

v7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

v8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

v9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

v10  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

v11  Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


2 Cor 5:16  Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.


1 Cor 13:9-12 

v9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

v10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

v11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

v12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



Thanks,

Marques
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CEO

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2009, 01:30:17 PM »

bibleman

In Ray's november 08 biblestudy that Kat just posted, Ray says Jesus was the son before he was even born of Mary.

Askseeknock
Charles
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chuckt

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2009, 12:55:45 PM »

2 And the life was manifested, and we have seen and are testifying and reporting to you the life eonian which was toward the Father and was manifested to us.

Chapter 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.

14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John is testifying concerning Him and has cried, saying, "This was He of Whom I said, 'He Who is coming after me, has come to be in front of me,' for He was first, before me,"
16 for of that which fills Him we all obtained, and grace for grace.
17 For the law through Moses was given; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him.



good thread.

inlove
chuckt

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lilitalienboi16

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2009, 03:51:15 PM »

This issue of wether Jesus is the Son of God before His birth through marry or when He was actually baptized/born out of marry is easily solved by one scripture.

John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."

Jesus was the glorified SON of God BEFORE the world began. Do we honestly think Jesus was glorified before the world began if He wasn't actually yet THE Son of God?

We are told He emptied Himself out of His divinity. Can't remember what verse so my apologies. If someone else can find it and link it that be great.

Regardless though, for Jesus to empty Himself out of His divinity and pray for His glory to be returned to Him which He had before the world began.. i think that puts the nail in the coffin.

Jesus was here before the world ever existed and came out of God, was born of God thus making Him the Son of God and than later came through marry into the physical world so that we might know God the Father.

God bless,

Alex
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Marky Mark

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2009, 04:14:35 PM »

Quote
We are told He emptied Himself out of His divinity. Can't remember what verse so my apologies. If someone else can find it and link it that be great.


Here you go Alex.


Php 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
Php 2:8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Php 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."



Peace...Mark
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: the sonship
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2009, 04:25:51 PM »

Quote
We are told He emptied Himself out of His divinity. Can't remember what verse so my apologies. If someone else can find it and link it that be great.


Here you go Alex.


Php 2:6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
Php 2:7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
Php 2:8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."
Php 2:9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean,
Php 2:11 and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father."



Peace...Mark


Hey mark, thanks a lot! There it is! Read it and weep ladies!
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