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Author Topic: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?  (Read 2714 times)

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JMsubordinate

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Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« on: August 21, 2009, 06:56:40 PM »

I have learned a lot from Ray, however I stumble at the bit where Jesus says that we must be reborn(born of the Spirit. ) in order to be saved...all biblical versus quoted by Ray clearly state that ALL men will be saved.... why then do we have to be reborn... someone please explain.
Thank you
Hans
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Linny

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2009, 07:36:47 PM »

Hi Hans,

You will undoubtedly get some great answers to your question full of great Scripture. I just wanted to say this.
I have found during the time I have been relearning and reevaluating all I was taught incorrectly, that people, particularly church folk, look at Scripture so literally -and it all must fit into our very short time frame while we are here.
Add freewill to that and it is all up to us.

They take the teachings and think it all has to be squeezed into our 72+- years on earth. Then they have invented loopholes for all those that don't or can't fit into their doctrines.

Now we know that the Bible is a parable and that what it speaks of in physical must manifest itself in the Spiritual.

So for me, reborn is what we will all be once we are purified and made perfect by God.

Joh 3:3  Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

In this Scripture, born again isn't one definition but 2. Born and again are separate.
It could also be written this way...
born from above
I like that!


Blessings, Lin
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mharrell08

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2009, 08:26:48 PM »

I have learned a lot from Ray, however I stumble at the bit where Jesus says that we must be reborn(born of the Spirit. ) in order to be saved...all biblical versus quoted by Ray clearly state that ALL men will be saved.... why then do we have to be reborn... someone please explain.
Thank you
Hans


Hello & welcome to the forum Hans,

I would recommend reading the 'Too Many Notes' section under the Lake of Fire series 16-D4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm)...here's an excerpt:

REBIRTH/BORN AGAIN: "...that which is conceived  [Gk: gennao]  in her is of the Holy Spirit... Now when Jesus was born  [Gk: gennao]  in Bethlehem..." (Matt. 1:20 & 2:1). Notice that words "conceived" and "born" are both translated from the same one Greek word gennao. So what are we to do with this verse: "Except a man be born  [Gk: gennao]  again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). Should this verse read: "born again," or "begotten  anew?" I once believed this verse should be "begotten" rather than "born," seeing that no one is literally "born" again in this life, but I now believe that context forbids this translation.  But how can Believers be literally born again in this life based on the context of Jesus' statement:

"That which is born of the flesh [that's all of us] IS FLESH [that too is all of us] and that which is born of the Spirit [are we now born of the Spirit? NO, and here's why...] ...that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT" (John 3:6). Is anyone human flesh and at the same time SPIRIT? No, I think not. Jesus adds more proof of what it is like to be "born of the Spirit" - "The wind [Gk: pneuma-'spirit'] blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell whence it comes, or whether it goes: so is everyone that is BORN of the Spirit" (Verse 8 ). Right there are three reasons why no one except Jesus has been born of the Spirit: [1] We are not composed of spirit, [2] We are not powerful like the wind, [3] Neither are we invisible like the wind.

And so, we as Believers as "conceived" by the Spirit of God and have the "earnest" of His Spirit (Eph. 1:14), but we will not be born again (or anew) until we are resurrected with "incorruptible, glorified, powerful, SPIRITUAL bodies" - like the WIND (I Cor. 15:42-44).


This section is regarding 'rebirth/born again' but the entire article helps a person's understanding regarding 'rebirth, justification, salvation, reconciliation, etc.' Take a look and let us know if that helps.


Thanks,

Marques
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EKnight

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 08:32:37 PM »

My understanding is that we all must be reborn of the spirit, baptized in spirit, spiritually circumsized, etc..
This is all part of salvation, all will spiritually come into the knowledge of truth either now or later.  

Have you read: How Hard is getting Saved?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

Eileen
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Kat

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 11:11:06 PM »

Hi Hans,

Welcome to the forum  :)

We have this life and that is all we know, this physical state of being.  We're kind of used to this physical state and God has put in us an extreme desire to preserve our life.  So I think we tend to look on anything that is not a physical being as something not as good as what we have in this world.  But this is only the first part of God's plan for the human race.

1Cor 15:46 But it is not the spiritual which is first but the physical, and then the spiritual.  

First we need this experience in the physical, to learn about good and evil.  We all must partake of the tree of knowledge and that's what the whole human race is doing now, in this age.  

I think we also tend to fear the unknown, and what lies beyond this life really is unknown to all but a little handful of people.  The church has done it's job well at striking fear into the hearts of people about hell and mislead them also about heaven.  But actually the truth about the gospel of the kingdom is greater and more wonderful than we are able to comprehend.  

It's hard to understand from this human perspective that the spiritual is more real than the physical, but the physical is only a temporary existence and the spiritual has no end.  I think first God is giving us a backdrop of darkness in this corrupt world, before He brings us into the light, so we can truly appreciate how wonderful it is.  Right now in this age only a very few are having their eyes opened to this truth.

John 12:46 I have come [as] a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.  

2Cor 4:6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.  

Acts 26:18 to open their eyes, [in order] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'  

1Peter 2:9 But you [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;  

Those few having their eyes opened have begun the process of slowing being shaped into the image of the Savior, being brought into the light.  

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.  

First God begins this process in us while we are still physical, He speaks to our heart showing us how to live. God's spirit works with our spirit helping us to desire the will of the Father above our physical desire more and more, so we are being "conformed to the image of His Son."  We begin to understand that most of our physical desires have us in bondage to sin and Christ in us gives us the strength to overcome.  We begin to see the spiritual meanings behind the words of Scriptures.  So there are a few that God will bring to spiritual maturity in this life, these are those that He is preparing to serve with Christ. These have a close relationship with Jesus Christ and their ultimate hope is the first resurrection. When Christ appears they will joyfully enter into the first resurrection and actually be born into the kingdom and receive incorruptible spirit bodies.  

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.  

v. 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,  
v. 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him], that we may also be glorified together.  
v. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.  
v. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
 
v. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,  
v. 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 11:31:08 PM by Kat »
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gmik

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2009, 01:07:58 AM »

Hans, Welcome to our Forum Family.  Thanks for the question.  Did you read all the responses? I did and so will others.

 See, you asked a question for yourself, but all of us get to read loads of scripture.  I get so much out of these threads.  Its one big Bible study.

Be Blessed friend.
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2009, 02:01:37 AM »

All men are not saved 'anyway'.  All men will be saved God's way.  Whatever God says must needs happen, must needs happen. 

The hardest part of understanding in the beginning is 'unlearning' so very much of what was preached and taught into us.  This too is necessary.  "Except a seed fall to the ground and die..."

Welcome to the forum.  Hang in there! 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

aqrinc

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2009, 02:43:10 AM »


Hi Hans,

Welcome to the forum, good question too; below is a paper that Ray has already done on this subject.

Hope it answers your questions, otherwise by all means let us keep discussing it until you can see.




Excerpt from: March 2008 Biblestudy

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.msg56003.html#msg56003

     
                 CAN WE LOSE GOD’S SPIRIT AND EONIAN LIFE?
          [Is “once saved always saved” - Scripturally true or false?]
             [And what does it matter? Are not all saved ‘anyway’?]

What I’m trying to do here is pull together two or three thoughts.  I just marvel at the people that read our site and are confused about what we teach.  I can understand people going to all these churches and denominations and all these religions; Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims or whatever and how they are confusing.  But they will read hundreds of pages on our site and they are confused and I just shake my head in wonderment.  So here are just three ideas that people get and some of it from reading our material or they claim that they read it.

1.  That the Saints are already in heaven.  That is if you were a Saint and you died, then you went to heaven.

2.  No you don’t go to heaven when you die, but you are saved in this life.  Like right now, if you believe in Christ, you ARE saved now.  You will die and you will come up in the resurrection, but you are presently saved. 

3.  Then we have those who think, well maybe I’m right about all being saved, but this is an enigma to them.  Because does this then means that we are either saved now or we’ll be saved when we die or we’ll be saved when we die and are resurrected, then we’ll be in judgment or whatever, He’ll judge everybody and then they will be saved.

So I got this email yesterday, it’s a short  email:
‘Ray, if everyone goes to heaven, why did Jesus say in Matt. how hard it would be for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven?  Jesus said that after the rich man came to Him and He said that he should sale everything and give to the poor. 
I agree with you on the whole homosexual thing (so this would indicate that he read it, right, because you couldn’t agree with the “whole thing” unless you read it).  But why do we have to make a stand against it, if they are all going to heaven anyway?  What is the point of taking up your cross and following Jesus, which we all know is a very hard thing to do.  I’m really not trying to be sarcastic (I believe him, he’s not trying to be nasty, he’s not one of these guys that say, ‘oh Ray, so I guess I can go out and fornicate and do whatever I want.’  No, this one is asking sincerely.  He said I‘m not trying to be sarcastic here, he said I really want to know this), but what does it profit me to live a godly life?  When in actual fact I could go out and live the life of enjoying as much sex as I want, disobeying His commandments, rejecting the truth that He is, and still enjoy the same everlasting life.  Why should I deny myself all that worldly pleasure, if it all leads to God anyway?’

What does all this matter?  Why are we even here having a Bible study today, everybody is going to be saved ‘anyway’?  No they are not!  No one will ever be saved ‘anyway.’ 
That’s what I wrote back to him and I said, no one ever was or ever will be saved ‘anyway.’  There is only one way and it is not any way, it is through Jesus Christ who is the Life you see, “the Way, the Truth, and the Life” (John 14:6).  That’s the ONLY way.  But people think like this alright.  And I’ve got another email here.

george. :)


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cjwood

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2009, 05:25:40 AM »

hi hans,
welcome to the forum. i hope your journey here will be a blessing to you. you have been brought here as part of God's perfect plan for your life. the more you read and learn, the more you will come to understand why you were brought to the greatest website on the internet. when reading your question, "why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?" i thought of a couple of things. firstly, that all men aren't saved anyway, they are saved God's Way, through Jesus Christ, the Way the Truth and the Life. secondly, that all men are GOING to be saved because all men WILL be reborn (of Spirit).  one can't be saved without being reborn, and one can't be Spiritually reborn and not become Saved.

claudia
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 03:47:32 AM by cjwood »
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Marky Mark

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Re: Why be reborn if all men are saved anyway?
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2009, 11:13:29 AM »

I have learned a lot from Ray, however I stumble at the bit where Jesus says that we must be reborn(born of the Spirit. ) in order to be saved...all biblical versus quoted by Ray clearly state that ALL men will be saved.... why then do we have to be reborn... someone please explain.
Thank you
Hans

Quote
why then do we have to be reborn


Welcome Hans. Here are some powerful reason.

Romans 12:
1  I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
2  And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.
3  For I say, through the grace given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think. But set your mind to be right-minded, even as God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.


1Cor.1: 26  For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
 27  but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
 28  God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
 29  so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.



Peace...Mark




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