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Author Topic: Underseved grace????  (Read 1798 times)

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Underseved grace????
« on: August 26, 2009, 01:41:08 PM »

This teaching of christianity just doesnt sit right with me.  When one fully understands the myth of free will this undeserved grace teaching doesnt quite fit--well at least to me.  Maybe im wrong, but what say you guys?

Also i know there are some translations out there that put in the undeserved kindness for grace---that is what the dictionaries define grace as.

I dont know it just doesnt sit right with me.  What do you guys think?

One last thing that comes to mind here is, Jesus was given grace also, so was it undeserved?  I dont think so.


  • Guest
Re: Underseved grace????
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2009, 03:49:38 PM »

Ray has a Bible study 'Saved By Grace Thru Faith' that he explains that grace is His divine influence upon our hearts.  The 'undeserved' teaching in the church I believe is because it is a "free gift," so they say there is absolutely nothing we can do/works to deserve/earn it, which is true.  But then they say therefore there is no need for works, not true.  

Rom 5:15  But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace 5485 of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

mercy, peace and love

« Last Edit: August 26, 2009, 10:47:46 PM by Kat »


  • Guest
Re: Underseved grace????
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2009, 10:41:39 PM »

Hi Ak4,

Kat pointed you to this paper, Ray has already done the explanation, below is a small excerpt.

Saved By Grace Thru Faith

Excerpt from:,5417.msg43145.html#msg43145

What I wanted to do todayÖ. Iím starting to get into it now, though all this other stuff is good.  What is grace?  He saves us by grace, what is it? 
Basically grace means gratuitous, okay.  In Spanish we say gracias.  What does that mean?  Thank you.  Grace means gracious, itís gratuitous, a favor, itís a gift, itís free, gracias, okay.  But it doesnít end there with just being gracious, favor, gift and so on. 

How in a theological way, do we apply the word grace, when we say we are saved by grace?  What does that mean, we are saved by grace?  How does it save us?  What is the connection there, between being saved by the word grace?  How does the word save us?  Well if the word grace means gratuitous or free, then we could say we are freely saved or it means a favor or gift.  We are saved as a gift from God.  Itís a gift from God, He saves us.  That is true, but letís ask this questionÖ.. look in Luke, this is speaking of Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:40  And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the GRACE of God was upon Him.

What does that mean?  If grace is what saves us from our sins, if thatís the big thing and that is what is taught in the church, you know weíre saved from our sins, weíre saved from death, weíre saved by grace.
It saves us Ďfromí something doesnít it?  If you are savedÖ. if someone is drowning in the ocean and you save him, you saved him from drowning in the ocean.  If a fireman saves somebody in a burning house, they saved him from being burned in the house, right.

If we are saved by grace, what is it saving us from?  What did Christ need to be saved from?  Did He need to be pardoned for anything?  Did grace cover His sins or something?  No. 

Well there is another aspect of grace.  You know we have all these words, gracious, graciousness, gratuitous, liberal, benefit, favor, gift, joy, pleasure, thanks, all of these are words.

george. :)



  • Guest
Re: Underseved grace????
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 03:02:59 PM »

Great responses Kat and AQR.

My wonderings are though, babylon says its undeserved, but is it really? We know that God has subjected the creature to vanity, not unwillingly, and given us an experience of evil, but then He gives us grace, a free gift, (a thank you?).  Is this as a thank you for "putting up" with this experience of evil He gave us.  Like He thanks us for understanding what He had to put us through so we could learn and get the fruits of God to become like Him, almost as if we did deserve it, but then the thought of works comes in as if it was something one has done to earn this thanks/grace and we know thats not the case.

I fully understand grace as the divine influence upon the heart, but as a thank you or gracious could God also be thanking us?  When i look at it like this and with knowing absolutely we have no free will it warms my heart and makes me smile (imma softy for God  ;D) and it does feel deserved instead of undeserved.

Its like as a parent of a bad out of control kid, thanks/graces their kid for being willing (not by their own free will of course by "the parents goodness") to go through tough love to learn what it is they want them to learn, and along the way they teach them (with their free gift of grace) their ways.

I dont know its like at first it may feel undeserved grace/thanks to the recipient of the grace, but afterwards that thanks/grace given becomes like a mutual thing---like I thank God for giving me grace--the divine influence on the heart and thanks in advance even before i even realised it for putting up with the lessons He had to teach me

I guess its just an mutual understanding thing


  • Guest
Re: Underseved grace????
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 04:11:20 AM »

Hi Ak4,

I fully understand grace as the divine influence upon the heart, but as a thank you or gracious could God also be thanking us?  When i look at it like this and with knowing absolutely we have no free will it warms my heart and makes me smile (imma softy for God  ) and it does feel deserved instead of undeserved.

Grace is not a thing in the sense of a wrapped gift. If you read the referenced paper carefully, Ray clearly shows that Grace is a Teacher/Educator, Corrector, Consoler, Chastiser (Coach/Mentor). Read the Scriptures below, then read the excerpt from Ray's paper again, that should make it clearer.

Eph 2: 4-10 (GNB)
4  But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
even we being dead in deviations, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are being saved),
6  and raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus,
7  that He might demonstrate in the ages coming on, the exceeding great riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;
not of works, that not anyone should boast;
10  for we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God before prepared that we should walk in them.

Saved By Grace Thru Faith

Excerpt from:,5417.msg43145.html#msg43145

In the Lake of Fire series I showed that grace is a verb.  We learn that when we are judged we are chastened of the Lord, 1 Cor 11: 32.  Chastening defines how God judges us.  Now we are about to learn something very profound here, if we can get it.

Titus 2:11  ďFor the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men,
v. 12  Teaching usÖ.Ē

What is doing the teaching?  Grace is doing the teaching.  Itís laboring - itís teachings - itís the divine influence of God on our heart, itĎs teaching us.  So itís...

v. 12 ...TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world (eon - age);

So when it says God judges us by chastening us in 1 Cor. 11: 32, the word chasten there is the Greek word Ďpaideuō.Ď  Then when God says He graces us, by Ďteaching usí (Titus 2:12), the word teaching is the same word paideuo and it means - to labor, to work, to chasten, to punish, to teach, to educate.  There is like a dozen different words that this means, this Ďteaching.í  Thatís what it does, it actually does something.  And the same way what it does for us, it will eventually do for the world.

Now that verse tells us that teaching us, denies ungodliness and so on.  That one word alone covers everything good and righteous that we could ever do or think.  I mean if itís godly itís right and good, itís all in that one word.  Notice that this is a godly man, that says it all, I mean if he really is godly, heís God like.  You canít be God like and Satan like at the same time, you know that does not fit.  So this is a remarkable thing that grace teaches - educates - punishes if necessary - schools us - programs us and it teaches us to live godly- soberly - justly and righteously.  The grace of God teaches us to do all those things and God says His judgments chastens us.  Itís the same list of things, itís the same chastening - gracing, they are the same thing.

Now we learn that we get the heart and unbelief here, 2 things.  Oh that there were such a heart in them (Deu 5:29).  Then in Hebrews 3:12 it says, I hope that itís not found in you such an Ďevilí heart of unbelief.  Those 2 go hand in hand. 

george :).

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