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Author Topic: Please explain biblical contradiction  (Read 2358 times)

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JMsubordinate

  • Guest
Please explain biblical contradiction
« on: August 29, 2009, 11:46:37 AM »

As a reborn Christian it is lovely to read that All men will be saved as per the many scriptures pointed out in the teachings of Ray Smith. (So why be reborn if that be the case?)
I do not know what to believe as the bible contradicts itself times without number.

1. The bit about having to be reborn or you will not be saved... please tell where are the people who died without rebirth.
2. There clearly IS a HELL as even Jesus Himself says.... and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it.
3. When hanging on the cross Jesus said to the thieve on his side that he will be in PARADISE with HIM TODAY... if the dead are dead, where than is paradise... is this different from heaven?
4. Is the Catholic Purgatory the right teaching? It is similar to Rays vision of the "Fire" teaching

There are many scriptures like this...so how can I believe the elaborate teachings of NO HELL by Ray... please explain these contradictions.
Thank you
I earnestly seek the truth.
Hans
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G. Driggs

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 12:45:47 PM »

HI Hans, I suggest you read and re-read all of Ray's articles, and go back and check for yourself in Scriptures to see if they are true, because if you had done this then I seriously doubt you would be asking these questions. It also helps if you have a dictionary of some kind and really study Scriptures.

I can assure you that Ray has answered all of your questions as given to him from the Scriptures, which are Spirit, and it takes spiritual eyes and ears to understand.

Sincerly hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs 
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 01:13:35 PM »

Quote
1. The bit about having to be reborn or you will not be saved... please tell where are the people who died without rebirth.
2. There clearly IS a HELL as even Jesus Himself says.... and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it.
3. When hanging on the cross Jesus said to the thieve on his side that he will be in PARADISE with HIM TODAY... if the dead are dead, where than is paradise... is this different from heaven?
4. Is the Catholic Purgatory the right teaching? It is similar to Rays vision of the "Fire" teaching

Hello Hans.Hope this helps.

1. All people are dead and in the grave,awaiting resurrection.
2.Hell (hades) is the realm of the dead.
3. From the CLV
    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise."
4. The fire is Gods Spiritual fire,for God is a consuming fire. Purgatory is a heresy taught of babylon.


PS
 G. Driggs gives great advice. :)


Peace...Mark
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 01:18:07 PM by Marky Mark »
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 01:25:16 PM »

Hello Hans,

As Driggs stated, Ray answers all your questions, and in great detail, throughout his writings. You would do well to read all of them.

But I will give you a few short answers to help satisfy your post...


1. The bit about having to be reborn or you will not be saved... please tell where are the people who died without rebirth.

Being 'reborn' is NOT some magic trick that happens 'in an instant' when one accepts Christ as their Lord and Saviour. It's a process in which the carnal mind--flesh is put to death, and one becomes Spiritual. There are countless Scriptures which say that we must 'die to the flesh' and be 'regenerated in Spirit'.



2. There clearly IS a HELL as even Jesus Himself says.... and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it.


No Jesus NEVER EVER ONCE said anything about "Hell". Jesus spoke of TWO 'things': Gehenna [from Ge Hinnom--Valley of Hinnom] and Hades [from Sheol--Unseen]. The KJV and several other translations mistranslate both of these words into "Hell"...

TWO words with different meanings mistranslated into ONE word with the same meaning.  ???

Notice this verse from a few more accurate translations:

Young's: "and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it"

Rotherham's: "and, the gates of hades, shall not prevail against it"

Concordant: "and the gates of the unseen shall not be prevailing against it"



3. When hanging on the cross Jesus said to the thieve on his side that he will be in PARADISE with HIM TODAY... if the dead are dead, where than is paradise... is this different from heaven?

No, Jesus did NOT say that the thief would be "with" Him that day. Jesus honored the thief's request to "remember him when He returned to His kingdom".

Three days after Christ died on the cross, He was resurrected. Soon after He said this:

John 20:17 Jesus said, "...for I have not yet returned to the Father."

How could Jesus have taken the thief home to Paradise with His Father, if He Himself hadn't yet returned?

Acts 1:3b He [Jesus] appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

Forty days Christ spent on the Earth, before He ascended back to 'paradise'.

So where is the 'thief'? He's in the same place all dead people go when they [and we] die:

Gen 3:19 you are dust, and to dust you shall return."

Ecc 3:19  For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other...
20  All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.


4. Is the Catholic Purgatory the right teaching? It is similar to Rays vision of the "Fire" teaching

No. The Catholic Purgatory is not the right teaching, and is totally unscriptural and unrelated to Ray's teaching.

......................

The problem today with Christianity is that 'Christians' have gotten far too comfortable trusting what their pastors, theologians, and teachers say. They don't take the time to research these things for themselves, to see if what they learn in Sunday School is correct. They just accept it.

When the Apostles started preaching the gospel, we read of those who heard them that they:

Acts 17:11 received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

Does the average Christian "search the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things [the Church teaches] are so"? No, they don't. That's why they are deceived. That's why WE have been deceived in the past. Because we didn't SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES.

II Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

How does one know what a "profane and vain babbling" is? Well you have to STUDY and SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES. There's a reason why these verses are in here.

Do these things, and you will learn the Truth...

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


May GOD Guide You,

Daywalker  8)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 02:12:22 PM »


Hi Hans,

Welcome to the forum  :)

You are steeped in the teachings of the church and all of us here have had our own experiences in the church too, but we have learned that they are serving the god of this world and teach the doctrines of men.  Now this may be a rude awakening for you, but once you have read through some of the articles on BT you will begin to understand.  You must now begin the tedious process of unlearning all of these false doctrines that you are now so confused with.  But you have found a very good teacher here at BT in Ray Smith.  Start reading at the top of the BT home page and keep reading all the way down and you will slowly, but surely have all of these false doctrines unraveled by Ray.  Do not expect to have all your answers in one day, week or even a month, because there is much to be learned and it is a time comsumming process to undo what you may have been learning in the church for years.  Once you begin to read the Scripture with open eyes, the contradictions will go away and Jesus Christ will bless you with the truth of His word.

Mat 11:28  Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
v.29  Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
v. 30  For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

We are here to help and encourage you along the way.  It is good to have this fellowship as you may quickly find out that there are few if any that will hear what you have to say about these new found truths.  But persevere and you will have the greatest of rewards.
 
mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 02:54:13 PM by Kat »
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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 04:44:37 PM »

As a reborn Christian it is lovely to read that All men will be saved as per the many scriptures pointed out in the teachings of Ray Smith. (So why be reborn if that be the case?)
I do not know what to believe as the bible contradicts itself times without number.

1. The bit about having to be reborn or you will not be saved... please tell where are the people who died without rebirth.
2. There clearly IS a HELL as even Jesus Himself says.... and the gates of HELL shall not prevail against it.
3. When hanging on the cross Jesus said to the thieve on his side that he will be in PARADISE with HIM TODAY... if the dead are dead, where than is paradise... is this different from heaven?
4. Is the Catholic Purgatory the right teaching? It is similar to Rays vision of the "Fire" teaching

There are many scriptures like this...so how can I believe the elaborate teachings of NO HELL by Ray... please explain these contradictions.
Thank you
I earnestly seek the truth.
Hans

1. Where does it state that if you are not reborn you will not be saved?
    - What makes you think you are reborn in this life?
    a. No one is reborn in this life, rather we are being concieved by the Father and we have an earnest down payment in the form of His spirit. We have not yet attained anything but rather are striving to be born again.
             - Those born again, of God's spirit, are invisible and powerful like the wind. How many christians do you know that are invisible and powerful like the wind?
             - Now my final point, i'm not 100% sure so someone if i am off, please correct me, but to my understand; Those who inherit the kingdom of heaven are those who have been born again and saved, which does not occur in this life but is rather reserved for God's chosen elect, who will ultimately help bring all of humanity into God's family by judging the angels and the world.

2. There is no hell. Clearly there isn't. Perhaps in your bible translation but Jesus spoke no such thing of a 21st century hell. Please don't come here and try and teach the rest of us. You are seriously mistaken. Where would you like to start? If the scriptures aren't enough, maybe we should dig at the translation of the word which you know as 'hell?' How can you sit there and say that you are overjoyed at the salvation of all and than turn around and say there exists 'clearly' a hell?
       -Jesus said the gates of 'HADES' [AKA THE GRAVE/DEATH] shall not prevail against Him or His kingdom. Why? Well we are told why in revalation.
               - Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."          
               a. Now lets stop and think for a minute here. Lets say you're right. Hell is a place of fire and torture. Okay. Do you really believe that HELL was thrown into the LAKE OF FIRE? What is the lake of fire than? Is the lake of fire also hell? Do you really think that makes any sence? That God threw hell into itself, into hell? Oh He sure showed hell!
                       - No what God did was, now follow me closely, throw DEATH AND THE GRAVE [AKA HADES/HELL] into the LAKE OF FIRE. Why? Well, we are told why!
                                 -1 Corinthians 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
                                 - There you have it! The reason that death and grave are thrown into the lake of fire is because the last enemy of God to be destroyed is death! And wait, lets take this even further. What is the lake of fire?
                                         - Revelation 20:14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."      
                                         - Since the lake of fire is actually the second DEATH and we are told that DEATH is the LAST ENEMY TO BE ABOLISHED, DESTROYED, FINISHED than by this reasoning, EVEN THE LAKE OF FIRE WILL COME TO AN END! PRAISE GOD!! :)

3. Yea well Jesus could have also, "Verily, this DAY, i say to YOU, you SHALL [FUTURE] be with me in paradise." Since the old manuscripts where not big on punctuation it was easy to see it as Jesus saying something completely different. However Jesus makes it clear that He will be, SHALL , which means in the future, be with Him in paradise. Put the comma in the right place, and you see a whole different meaning to the phrase. Which makes complete sense and is in line with the scriptures. No contradiction.

4. No purgatory teaching is complete garbage.

I hope this helps you. The above was said only to aid you and is not ment to be taken offensively.

God bless,

Alex

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 04:47:13 PM by lilitalienboi16 »
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 04:55:11 PM »


Hi Hans,

So much to read or listen to, Ray has covered all your questions in multiple papers. Read the excerpt for a quick definition on being born again (begotten anew.)

WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

Excerpt from: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384

You got to be careful, when Christ said, “except you be born again”  we are not born again.  But we are begotten anew, from on high.  Some of these words are left out of the KJ.  It should be “we are begotten anew, from on high.”   You are begotten once in the flesh from our parents.  Now we are begotten anew, a new begettal from on high.  And when we are born into the kingdom of God, then we are made where our flesh and blood is turned into spiritual bodies.  We will be like God, brother of Christ, like God.  So which of the of the sons did He ever say that?  Well He said that to His Son, but He never said it to the angels. 

Heb 2:10  For it became Him, for whom are all things(speaking of Jesus), and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
v. 11  For both He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

There it is!  Did He ever do this with the angels, in His original creation?  Back there between the heaven and the earth, when they shouted for joy.  When He put the earth in motion and started pushing it around the universe and they shouted for joy and sang?  No.  They were created beings.  We are begotten.  But remember we only have the earnest, the down payment.

Like a conception, there is not a baby until it’s born.  Am I right doctor?  You are a OBGYN?  So Dr. Carol here knows all about what I’m talking about.  When you are begotten, when there is a conception, there is no baby, yet.  Not until they start to cry, then you cut the umbilical cord, now we got a human being, born.
So we will be born.  There is a big difference between being purchased or being adopted and being born into royalty, born into the family of God.

george. :)

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indianabob

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  • Posts: 1743
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2009, 10:03:05 PM »

Hans,

Welcome to the Bible Truths forum.
Many members have responded to your questions and many more are waiting to help you in any way they can.  Please stay with us and be patient with the work of studying, it will pay dividends for you in time.

Please accept that this is a difficult process and will be accomplished only with a growing trust in God's loving purpose for us all.  So, please do study more as time allows and know that it may take a few months as it has for most of us. 

We love all those whom God has called and sent to learn of Him and we will work patiently with you as long as it takes.

Warm regards to you, Indiana Bob
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firefly77

  • Guest
Re: Please explain biblical contradiction
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2009, 10:54:23 AM »

Hans,
Welcome to the forum. I can promise you after being here for the last 3 to 4 years and finally becoming a member, it is worth it!
In the beginning, it was a big shock to my system. My house of cards (Babylon's teaching) came crashing down. Trying to reformat my hard drive (my believe) and installing a new operating system (the truth) was very difficult at times. I am glad I stayed with it, because now it all makes complete sense to me. Be patient, read and study; you will begin to understand more and more. It doesn't happen instantaneously.

Blessings,
Angie
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