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Author Topic: Well?  (Read 3557 times)

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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« on: June 12, 2006, 12:08:45 PM »

If Jonas was conscious for his experience in the fish, then how come Jesus was not conscious for the three days he was dead?

How is the three days of death of the heart of the Earth painful?
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love_magnified

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Well?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 02:27:29 PM »

Jonah's experience was a sign, a symbol.
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shibboleth

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Well?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 02:56:14 PM »

How do we know Jonah wasn't dead in the fishes belly? All that toxic waste and little air may have killed him and then God revived him. I too will do a study on this question.
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buddyjc

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Well?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 02:56:37 PM »

Actually, the Hebrews expressed partial days as a 'day and night' or a full day.  We do not really know then whether Jonah was in the fish for a full three days.  Christ was in the grave Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, but while Friday and Sunday were partial days they would have expressed them as full days.  

Brian
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Indagator

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Well?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2006, 12:46:49 AM »

Funny, I've actually been reading Matthew this past week.  

Mat 12:39  And he answering said to them, `A generation, evil and adulterous, doth seek a sign, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;
Mat 12:40  for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.

I believe that verse 40 is somewhat of a qualifier for verse 39, but only according to what the pharisees could perceive...i.e...carnally.  If He had wished, Christ could have further explained what he meant something like " For three days will my body lay lifeless, but on the third I will live again" or whatever.  If He'd done that though, then they might understand His speech about destroying the temple, and raising it again in three days.  They might have understood any parable then, and that would go against His purpose since he came to make the blind see, and make the seeing blind.

I am seeing this...


a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet;

It...what is "it"?  An evil and adulterous generation.  Yes, the pharisees trying to trap him, but anyone that asks for a "sign, miracle, wonder, etc" in order for them to believe.  To ask for a "Sign" is to be thinking carnally.  I get signs all the time, but not like literal "fire from heaven".  My "fire from heaven is spiritual, and it comes when I seek it enough, and when God is ready to give it to me.  Christ I think was speaking here to seperate flesh and spirit.  The pharisees at the time would have thought, "Oh, he's going to be in the belly of a whale" or what have you but..."My word is spirit".  He "dumbed down" what he was saying I think to keep some blinded somewhat (like me actually...I"m getting part of the picture, but missing an actual answer to your question).

What if the fish is the "Church" or Babylon?  This just occured to me and I have no scripture to back it right now.  It's kind of hard to type because I slashed my finger at work a few days ago and have a finger splint on so I don't pop my stitches so typing is a bit difficult right now
 :lol: .

Christ does say that he will go into the "heart of the earth".  Earth is usually spiritually understood as "Church".  So my question is, could being in the belly of the whale scripturally be backed as the same thing as being "in the heart of the earth"?  I don't think so, but if anyone has something to offer to help me see this more clearly I'm all ears  :D
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 07:28:39 AM »

Someone should email Ray this question. Maybe I will. In fact, I'll do it right now.
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2006, 07:41:20 AM »

Here's what I emailed Ray:

From my current understanding, Jonah was conscious while in the fish that swallowed him (Jon 2:1). This parable, however, was a type (shadow) of, or, rather, foreshadowed Christ's experience and death. However, my questions are these:

If Jonas was conscious for his experience in the fish, then how come Jesus was not conscious for the three days he was dead and in hades? How is the three days (not counting the three nights) of death of the heart of the earth painful as compared with Jonah's conscious experience? Lastly, if Jesus had a spiritual body “in the beginning,? then when he died, how did he die a normal human death and go to hades? Did God convert his spiritual body into a regular ruach when He impregnated Mary?

PS. Is Jonah praying inside the fish (Jon 2:1) foreshadowing Christ's painful prayer in the garden? I think I see a connection.

Thank you. God bless.

- Zach Blaesi (Nightmare Sasuke)
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2006, 07:41:51 AM »

Quote from: shibboleth
How do we know Jonah wasn't dead in the fishes belly? All that toxic waste and little air may have killed him and then God revived him. I too will do a study on this question.


He prayed while in the fishes belly, so he obviously was alive and conscious.
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Lightseeker

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Well?
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2006, 04:20:25 PM »

Quote
Mickeyd,
If Jesus was not buried for 3 days and 3 nights, then maybe he just said those words for the spiritual meaning. "It is finished" was among his last words on the cross.....just a thought.


The church has taught that these words mean all the work He was sent to do was finished.  But scripture says without the resurrection our faith is in vain.  He also went and preached to the disobedient spirits of Noahs time...sounds like more work needing to be done to me.

I now hold to the belief that what Jesus meant on the cross is dealing with His suffering in the flesh..."It is finished".  Because it was right after that...that He gave up his spirit and died physically.  Which was the penalty for sin.
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2006, 07:24:30 PM »

Quote from: Lightseeker
Quote
Mickeyd,
If Jesus was not buried for 3 days and 3 nights, then maybe he just said those words for the spiritual meaning. "It is finished" was among his last words on the cross.....just a thought.


The church has taught that these words mean all the work He was sent to do was finished.  But scripture says without the resurrection our faith is in vain.  He also went and preached to the disobedient spirits of Noahs time...sounds like more work needing to be done to me.

I now hold to the belief that what Jesus meant on the cross is dealing with His suffering in the flesh..."It is finished".  Because it was right after that...that He gave up his spirit and died physically.  Which was the penalty for sin.


Did he preach to spirits in prison BEFORE or AFTER his death? Ask yourself that. Now, what does prison mean?
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2006, 07:25:10 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Here's what I emailed Ray:

From my current understanding, Jonah was conscious while in the fish that swallowed him (Jon 2:1). This parable, however, was a type (shadow) of, or, rather, foreshadowed Christ's experience and death. However, my questions are these:

If Jonas was conscious for his experience in the fish, then how come Jesus was not conscious for the three days he was dead and in hades? How is the three days (not counting the three nights) of death of the heart of the earth painful as compared with Jonah's conscious experience? Lastly, if Jesus had a spiritual body “in the beginning,? then when he died, how did he die a normal human death and go to hades? Did God convert his spiritual body into a regular ruach when He impregnated Mary?

PS. Is Jonah praying inside the fish (Jon 2:1) foreshadowing Christ's painful prayer in the garden? I think I see a connection.

Thank you. God bless.

- Zach Blaesi (Nightmare Sasuke)


Dear Zachary:
Too big a subject for an email. I will write a paper on this in the future, but not today. Hope you understand. This is not a priority with me at this time.
God be with you,
Ray
 
----

We'll have to keep an eye out for his paper!
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Mickyd

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« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2006, 09:36:49 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke

Did he preach to spirits in prison BEFORE or AFTER his death? Ask yourself that. Now, what does prison mean?


Both....I believe that spiritually, prision means the same as bondage. He always preached to those in bondage to the Babylonian system, both before and after his death.....and still does for those who listen.
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nightmare sasuke

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Well?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2006, 10:05:11 PM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Quote from: nightmare sasuke

Did he preach to spirits in prison BEFORE or AFTER his death? Ask yourself that. Now, what does prison mean?


Both....I believe that spiritually, prision means the same as bondage. He always preached to those in bondage to the Babylonian system, both before and after his death.....and still does for those who listen.


Yeah. I got the feeling that other guy was suggesting Jesus was conscious after death and, literally, preached to dead spirits in prison.
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Lightseeker

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« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2006, 11:59:51 AM »

nightmare sasuke
Quote
Did he preach to spirits in prison BEFORE or AFTER his death? Ask yourself that . Now, what does prison mean?


Actually I was asking myself that question many years ago Nitemare.  I think it was 'during' his death.  I believe His body was in the tomb paying the price for sin which is death, but his spirit (which can't die) went and preached to the spirits who were in prison...just like the bible says IMO.

Quote
that other guy
does that 'other guy' have a name?  Are you inferring me?  If yes, why such an impersonal comment?  Seems a little cold to me.  Have I offended you?
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mustardseed

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« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2006, 06:19:46 PM »

First of all, the Bible doesn't mean what it says...it means what it means.

Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17  And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18  Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.
Act 2:19  And I will show wonders in the heaven above, And signs on the earth beneath; Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke:
Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the day of the Lord come, That great and notable day.

Peter was quoting Joel.(Joel 2:28-32) And he said that was it. The things Peter spoke of didn't literally occur that day....physically...but they certainly did spiritually. The sun was not darkened nor did the moon turn to blood...literally.  Peter understood it spiritually. It's the same with Jonah. Jonah was just the type just as Joseph was the type of Christ standing before Pharoh, the type of the Father. You can't transpose the literal scenarios of the types to fit the actual prophesied events. The types are mere shadows of better things to come and not the very image of the things. (Heb. 10:1)
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