A seemingly stupid question

[Akira329]

Some more!

Heb 9:11  But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12  Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13  For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Also to restate:

Joh 15:13  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14  Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Antaiwan

[aqrinc]

wonderment, good question.  I would also like to know the same.  The answers so far are the regular stuff I get from pastors and others that I ask.  Quoting scriptures with explanations that still do not tell me the necessity or value (as apposed to say, Jesus deciding not to go through with his death) of dieing.  I would understand this as an example only, a statement of the passion God has for us to set up such an example for us to follow as a standard of excellence necessary for us to be called righteous but this would be problematic with being saved by works. Stating he died for my sin is a quote and I see the obvious correlation to the sacrificial laws but still do not see the necessity of any person dieing to remove anything. The animals paid for nothing, they were for an example, prophecy and staging of what was to take place with Jesus. Except for the Israelites obedience to the laws the animals and sacrifices did nothing, there blood was of no value to forgive or remove any sins. Why would God require Jesus' blood? How does this material or act rescind my Sin?

Have you read any of this Paper from Ray yet? There is a whole lot of information that will more than answer your questions. There is an excerpt below for some quick answers, please read the entire paper asap, it will help with a lot of other difficult questions.

Excerpt From: THE FATHER'S WILL?  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960

John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (Eonian) life."

Why did God do that?  And why did Christ volunteer to go to the cross?  Well I've been told all my life that He died for my sins.  But did He have to?  Did He have to die for our sins?  Is there no way to pardon sins, out of His love and mercy?  Couldn't He say, 'okay you have sinned, but I pardon you.'  After all what is grace.

Eph 2:8  "For by grace you have been saved through faith."

Grace will save you, so why die?  Did Christ have to die?  Why did God want to die?  Why would God want to become a man?  When I say God I'm talking about Jehovah, Jesus Christ.  Did the Father 'make' His Son Jesus die?  Did He 'take' His Son's life?  NO!

John 10:17  For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father."

Jesus VOLUNTEERED HIS LIFE for us !!!  While we were yet sinners (Rom. 5:08).  What the law couldn't do and we couldn't do, CHRIST DID (Rom. 8:3).

We must experience sin before we can be saved from it!  How did Elohim come to a knowledge of "good and evil?"  We aren't told.

Why did God want to become a man and die?  Well there are a number of reasons.  Jesus Christ is the First fruit, He is the Word, He is the Creator of all and so on.  He made this human race and He gave them (all with the direction of the Father - Elohim) an experience of evil, which is not a nice thing.  God did not say there is nothing wrong with evil, just sit back and enjoy it, He doesn't talk like that.

Eze 33:11  "Say to them:  As I live, says the Lord Jehovah,  I have no delight in the death of the wicked,"

God made us, He put us through it, but we will never in all eternity, be able to have a one-upmanship over God, by saying you don't know what it's like.  It's already decided.  First of all, God gave up His Son, and for any of you that are parents, it is harder to give up a son than it is to give up yourself.

Now Christ is the actual Creator, He reduced Himself down to the very humans He made, to be just like them.  Except He had the Spirit of God.  So He came down to show us how to live as a human being, under all the duress, stress, and mess and He did it humbly and perfectly.

So He set us an example and He could have stopped there.  He could say I went through hunger, they tried to throw me off cliffs, they slapped Me, they mocked Me. They put spears in My side and He could have zapped them in a second.  He let them do that for 33 years and never fought back, and never had a evil thought against them. 

He showed you how to live and He could have quit.  But after He did all that, He said now I'm going to die for you, because I love you. Think about it, He didn't have to die, nobody took His life. He said I lay down My life and "no one takes it from Me," (John 10:18). He died to prove to us that He loves us. He didn't have to, He just did it. So we would know that He loves us. We can't say, but our Creator had it made in the shade, no.  He came down and was under the same temptations, under the same rules and regulations and then He went to the cross and died, voluntarily.  He says in effect, if that doesn't show that I love you, I don't know what else I can do.

So that's what He did and that's why He died, because He loved us and He wanted to prove it.  So He died for our sins.  God accepted that for a sacrifice, but it was a voluntary sacrifice.  It wouldn't have needed to be done, they did it that way, but it didn't need to be done that way.

They (Israelites) were forgiven for a whole year, just by the sprinkling of a goat's blood, in the Holy place on the Day of Pentecost. But Christ wanted to prove to the human race that He was every bit as good of a man, as any other man was.  He doesn't sit in His ivory tower telling us how great He is. He did it as a man. God became a man and died, because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.

This is awesome stuff.  It's like a fairytale from Greek mythology, but it's not, it the Bible.

So He puts us through hell to get us in His family.  It's necessary to go through this pain and suffering and evil, to become holy, righteous, and good, you have to go through it.

george

[Kat]

Hi Yudonsay,

Welcome to the forum 

Here is an excerpt from the 2007 Nashville Conference 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS?'  I hope it will help with your question.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------------

So this is the best that God can do, but it's not pretty and it's not fancy and it's not always happy.  It's painful  and sad and much of our lives are misery, you know, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside.  It's not always happy happy happy, but it's necessary.  Is it right, that God should put us through something like that?
We have no say about it, we didn't ask to be born and we didn't ask to get lung cancer or whatever.  We didn't ask for this, God puts us through it.  Is it fair for Him to do that?  Why is it fair?  Well there is something good in store.  But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first?  It's true, you have to have the contrast.  But sometimes I just say, Lord I think I'm at the place now, Lord I think I'm there.  You can take away the bad and see if I'm not thankful. 

He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and that's why I wanted to bring these out today.  Because most of you never knew that.  Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life.  Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things.  God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us!  He didn't have to.

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth.  He did something to acquire God's glory, something.  Because He had it and He didn't get it for nothing.
 
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters.  He has a desire to have something like Himself.  But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff.  So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God.  And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through.  He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly.  But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins.  That's true, that's the scripture, Christ died for our sin.  But then we have a scripture here that doesn't mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,"

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it's saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying.  What this is saying is God loved us, in this way.  This is the manner and way in which He loved us.  In this way He loved the world.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son,"

Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

"...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Of course the Bible is written so man does not understand it.  That's why some of these things are put in there, "that who-so-ever believes."  God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe.  So the 'who-so-ever' is going to be everybody, ok. 

But He gave His Son, now here's the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn't have to do anything, HE'S GOD!  Why did He?
 
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do? 

I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE!
 
But God can't die, He's eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can't die.
 
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.
 
Then they will know We love them.
 
Then they will know.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Also if you would like to listen to the audio of this conference you will find it at this link http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7B.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Marky Mark]

wonderment, good question.  I would also like to know the same.  The answers so far are the regular stuff I get from pastors and others that I ask.  Quoting scriptures with explanations that still do not tell me the necessity or value (as apposed to say, Jesus deciding not to go through with his death) of dieing.  I would understand this as an example only, a statement of the passion God has for us to set up such an example for us to follow as a standard of excellence necessary for us to be called righteous but this would be problematic with being saved by works. Stating he died for my sin is a quote and I see the obvious correlation to the sacrificial laws but still do not see the necessity of any person dieing to remove anything. The animals paid for nothing, they were for an example, prophecy and staging of what was to take place with Jesus. Except for the Israelites obedience to the laws the animals and sacrifices did nothing, there blood was of no value to forgive or remove any sins. Why would God require Jesus' blood? How does this material or act rescind my Sin?

Hello and welcome yudonsay .

Why would God require Jesus' blood?

Isa 53:5  'But He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the punishment that made us whole, and by His bruises we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

How does this material or act rescind my Sin?

Rom 8:32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?




Peace...Mark

[wonderment]

Wow, thanks for all of these replies- I was not expecting this to be such a popular post. It seems to me that a lot of people are in the same position as I am with not truly understanding why He died the way he did "for us".

These have all been really good replies though... I just saw a video on YouTube where a Calvinist was debating an Armenian and I guess Calvinists believe that God only died for the elect (correct me if I'm wrong). They would say just because he died for the sins of the whole world doesn't mean he died for everyone's sins... um, what? So basically I understand that Jesus lived the way he did and died the way he did to set an example of how to live... even up to death. Jesus didn't only live and die this way for the elect though? My only remaining question is how come it says "FOR" our sins? I understand Jesus died because of OUR sins, since he did not have any, and it was the sins of men that put him on the cross... but please bare with me, can someone please try (one more time?) to explain to me why it says he died FOR our sins?

Thanks
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and responses

[9440geoff]

This is Strongs description of the Greek for our word "for":

G5228
ὑπέρ
huper
hoop-er'
A primary preposition; "over", that is, (with the genitive case) of place, above, beyond, across, or causal, for the sake of, instead, regarding; with the accusative case superior to, more than. In compounds it retains many of the listed applications: - (+ exceeding abundantly) above, in (on) behalf of, beyond, by, + very chiefest, concerning, exceeding (above, -ly), for, + very highly, more (than), of, over, on the part of, for sake of, in stead, than, to (-ward), very. In compounds it retains many of the above applications.

We can see from this description that perhaps our word "for" does not have the same force as the Greek.

[Akira329]

Wow, thanks for all of these replies- I was not expecting this to be such a popular post. It seems to me that a lot of people are in the same position as I am with not truly understanding why He died the way he did "for us".

These have all been really good replies though... I just saw a video on YouTube where a Calvinist was debating an Armenian and I guess Calvinists believe that God only died for the elect (correct me if I'm wrong). They would say just because he died for the sins of the whole world doesn't mean he died for everyone's sins... um, what? So basically I understand that Jesus lived the way he did and died the way he did to set an example of how to live... even up to death. Jesus didn't only live and die this way for the elect though? My only remaining question is how come it says "FOR" our sins? I understand Jesus died because of OUR sins, since he did not have any, and it was the sins of men that put him on the cross... but please bare with me, can someone please try (one more time?) to explain to me why it says he died FOR our sins?

Thanks
I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and responses

Gal 1:4  Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father
It was also the will of God that this be done.

1Jn 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation - appeasing sacrifice, atoning sacrifice

1Jn 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Also a good read for you would be the Lake of Fire series!!!
I really suggest you read it!!!
Start here: http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html

Hope this helps
Antaiwan

[yudonsay]

Thanks for the greetings it is nice to be here.
There are some patient people on this forum so I will say it -- none of your explanations really helped.  Do not reply for my sake, this kind of thing has happenend before with concepts far more challenging, things I have no issue with understanding give friends and family cause to question both my heads.  I am either not seeing the forest because of all the trees in the way or am working to hard to see something that is far more simple ? ? ? Whatever, it'll  come to me.  It just takes time.

Akira329:  My thoughts are like this, Jesus' death/sacrifice is what ultimately saves us all regardless when (how and why ??).  Following a path of moral excellence cannot save you if you are not both called and chosen (most churches actually teach this literally).  Unless you are called and chosen following any prescribed methodology can only give us temporal gain at best.  Anything other than this would mean that all religions would have basis and value to actually find God and acquire salvation through our hard work of carefully following a morally correct, Godly life.  The classic saved by works doctrine is based on similar ideas.
I am not asking how or why he is the perfect sacrifice but how or why any sacrifice at all is required, how can my life be spared because he died what is he accepting that should be on me.  As I understand it all will go through judgement and none are spared this.  All must be taught to believe and obey and acquire righteousness through the same, even Jesus did this.  So this sacrifice does/did what?  I read the scriptures a thousand times and still am wondering.  I can see a sacrifice, correct me if I am off, as God's son now leaving his estate safe and secure as he should be to become human and showing us a path/way/life of gentleness and wisdom following this even when extreme discomfort and a shortened life were threatened especially for not doing anything wrong. This by any standards would be a sacrifice.  If this is it then tell me, if I am missing something tell me.

Wonderment:  I feel for you bud, I am still there.  Don't stop asking and seeking.

[Kat]

Hi Yudonsay,

Col 1:21  And you, who once were estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,
v. 22  He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before Him,

Human beings have absolutely no means to be reconciled to God, there is simply nothing that we can do in this retched state (carnal fleshly human) that will qualify us, that we can earn or deserve salvation, which will bring us into the God family.  God designed this plan to be this way, where we must have a Savior, Jesus Christ.  It's all by design, the state we are in, and the need for a Messiah. 

Isa 43:11  I, even I, am the LORD,
       And besides Me there is no savior.

His sacrifice is what reconciles us to God, pays the penalty, when He is ready to bring us to salvation, a few now, most later.  But we all are still held accountable and must be judged for the sins we have committed either now or later.

Here is an excerpt that may help with this.

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm ------------------------

"For our God IS A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

That Spiritual Fire of God is DEATH to the carnal, rebellious, sinful, wicked, unbelieving heart and mind of man. God is able to purify all people. All who enter the Spiritual Fire of God will truly emerge clean and godly and SAVED. Four things will happen first:

"...and they were [1] judged [2] every man according to their [3] works... into the lake of [4] fire..." (Rev. 20:13-14).

"...and the [1] fire shall [2] try [test or judge] [3] every man's [4] work..."(I Cor. 3:13).

The exact same four things occur in the fire of Rev. 20 as occur in the fire of I Cor. 3. But only I Cor. 3:15 tells us the marvelous outcome of God's fiery judgment of every man's work:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED, YET SO AS BY FIRE"!

There is the Scriptural destiny and outcome of Devine Spiritual Judgment—"SALVATION OF EVERY MAN." To be sure, "...Christ DIED for our sins" and "...and not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" (I Cor. 15:3 & I John 2:2), and so the penalty for all sin for all time has been paid in full. However... HOWEVER, paying the penalty for sin does NOT take the sin out of the sinner, it only pays the penalty. JUDGMENT is what takes the sin out of the sinner, and:

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the HOUSE OF GOD..." (I Pet. 4:17).

And contrary to orthodox Christianity, there are two great periods of judgment. The first is with 'the House of God,' and the second is in the final judgment of the rest of humanity in the Great White Throne Judgment. Here are the options according to Paul:

"For if we would [1] judge ourselves, we should not [2] be judged. But when we are [1] judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not [2] be condemned [judged adversely] with the world [in the Great White Throne judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).

Both judgments will bring salvation, but the latter is far more severe.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope this is helpful.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Akira329]

Thanks Kat was looking for that!
Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

Thanks for the greetings it is nice to be here.
There are some patient people on this forum so I will say it -- none of your explanations really helped.  Do not reply for my sake, this kind of thing has happenend before with concepts far more challenging, things I have no issue with understanding give friends and family cause to question both my heads.  I am either not seeing the forest because of all the trees in the way or am working to hard to see something that is far more simple ? ? ? Whatever, it'll  come to me.  It just takes time.

Akira329:  My thoughts are like this, Jesus' death/sacrifice is what ultimately saves us all regardless when (how and why ??).  Following a path of moral excellence cannot save you if you are not both called and chosen (most churches actually teach this literally).  Unless you are called and chosen following any prescribed methodology can only give us temporal gain at best.  Anything other than this would mean that all religions would have basis and value to actually find God and acquire salvation through our hard work of carefully following a morally correct, Godly life.  The classic saved by works doctrine is based on similar ideas.
I am not asking how or why he is the perfect sacrifice but how or why any sacrifice at all is required, how can my life be spared because he died what is he accepting that should be on me.  As I understand it all will go through judgement and none are spared this.  All must be taught to believe and obey and acquire righteousness through the same, even Jesus did this.  So this sacrifice does/did what?  I read the scriptures a thousand times and still am wondering.  I can see a sacrifice, correct me if I am off, as God's son now leaving his estate safe and secure as he should be to become human and showing us a path/way/life of gentleness and wisdom following this even when extreme discomfort and a shortened life were threatened especially for not doing anything wrong. This by any standards would be a sacrifice.  If this is it then tell me, if I am missing something tell me.

Wonderment:  I feel for you bud, I am still there.  Don't stop asking and seeking.

Yudonsay,

On one hand you say 'it'll come to me' then on the other you say 'if I'm missing something, tell me'...which is it?

The members here have given you ample reasons with multiple scriptural witnesses...now if you don't understand, they may not be because the members here 'could not help you'.

Perhaps it would be wise to spend more time reading & studying the scriptures with Ray's teachings while WAITING on the Lord to give you more understanding. There's no point to have members go over all these scriptures while you simply state 'I don't get it' while giving the same unscriptural point which basically demeans the sacrifice of Christ.

We understand you don't get it, but no one here can open one's eyes spiritually...that is a gift from God.


Marques

[daywalker]

wonderment, good question.  I would also like to know the same.  The answers so far are the regular stuff I get from pastors and others that I ask.  Quoting scriptures with explanations that still do not tell me the necessity or value (as apposed to say, Jesus deciding not to go through with his death) of dieing.  I would understand this as an example only, a statement of the passion God has for us to set up such an example for us to follow as a standard of excellence necessary for us to be called righteous but this would be problematic with being saved by works. Stating he died for my sin is a quote and I see the obvious correlation to the sacrificial laws but still do not see the necessity of any person dieing to remove anything. The animals paid for nothing, they were for an example, prophecy and staging of what was to take place with Jesus. Except for the Israelites obedience to the laws the animals and sacrifices did nothing, there blood was of no value to forgive or remove any sins. Why would God require Jesus' blood? How does this material or act rescind my Sin?

Simple Answer:

Because that's how God decided to do it.


Daywalker 

[legoman]

Yes, that's how God decided to do it.  And I think the main point I'm seeing here is this:

God decided to do it this way because it demonstrates God's love for mankind.

God's love is the greatest love of all, and there is no greater love than to sacrifice yourself for another, so what could be greater than sacrificing yourself for all mankind?  That is the greatest love possible.

That is why God did it this way, so we would know how much He loves us.

[cheekie3]

What a great question; and a multitude of Scriptural witnesses to show that the reason God decided to do it this way is to SHOW that He really does LOVE us ALL. cheekie3.