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Author Topic: A seemingly stupid question  (Read 6257 times)

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wonderment

  • Guest
A seemingly stupid question
« on: September 07, 2009, 11:11:25 PM »

Hello there, my account got approved today so now I can finally ask what I've always wanted to ask after following the bibletruths.com sight for so many years.

This is going to sound really really stupid in light of what forum I am asking this on and all but...

What exactly does it mean that Jesus Christ died for my sins? I know it means that he paid the price or it was to save us from sin and death or whatever but I still don't get why he had to die the way he did? What does it mean?

I feel stupid for never truly understanding it.
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musicman

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2009, 11:48:52 PM »

He's the real sacrifice for all mankind and their sins.  There is no more reason to sacrifice bulls and such.  I believe those sacrifices were for the soul purpose of being forgiven.  Basically they were a type for the ultimate sacrifice so that all may be forgiven and ultimately saved after our sins are removed.  So Christ's sacrifice does not remove our sins.  It just makes it possible for them to be removed eventually.  We have been forgiven for them though.
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2009, 12:31:02 AM »

What exactly does it mean that Jesus Christ died for my sins? I know it means that he paid the price or it was to save us from sin and death or whatever but I still don't get why he had to die the way he did? What does it mean?


John 15:12-13  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

1 John 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

John 10:14-16  I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Rom 5:6-8  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.



It means God is love...Our Father in Heaven, through His Son Jesus, talks the talk AND walks the walk.


Marques

P.S. Welcome to the forum Wonderment  :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2009, 02:16:18 AM »


Hi Wonderment,

Welcome to the forum  :)
Here is an excerpt from the 2006 Mobile Conference transcript WHAT IS "THE FATHER'S WILL?"

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27963.html#msg27963 ---

Phil. 2: 7-8 “But He made Himself of no reputation,  and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made [emptied Himself of His glory and privileges] in the likeness of men.  And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also has high exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name.”

John 3:16  For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting (Eonian) life."

Why did God do that?  And why did Christ volunteer to go to the cross?  Well I’ve been told all my life that He died for my sins.  But did He have to?  Did He have to die for our sins?  Is there no way to pardon sins, out of His love and mercy?  Couldn’t He say, 'okay you have sinned, but I pardon you.'  After all what is grace.

Eph 2:8  “For by grace you have been saved through faith.”

Grace will save you, so why die?  Did Christ have to die?  Why did God want to die?  Why would God want to become a man?  When I say God I’m talking about Jehovah, Jesus Christ.  Did the Father ‘make’ His Son Jesus die?  Did He ‘take’ His Son’s life?  NO!

John 10:17  For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it up again.
v. 18  No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father."

Jesus VOLUNTEERED HIS LIFE for us !!!  While we were yet sinners (Rom. 5:08).  What the law couldn’t do and we couldn’t do, CHRIST DID (Rom. 8:3).

We must experience sin before we can be saved from it!  How did Elohim come to a knowledge of “good and evil?”  We aren’t told.

Why did God want to become a man and die?  Well there are a number of reasons.  Jesus Christ is the First fruit, He is the Word, He is the Creator of all and so on.  He made this human race and He gave them (all with the direction of the Father - Elohim) an experience of evil, which is not a nice thing.  God did not say there is nothing wrong with evil, just sit back and enjoy it, He doesn’t talk like that.

Eze 33:11  “Say to them:  As I live, says the Lord Jehovah,  I have no delight in the death of the wicked,”

God made us, He put us through it, but we will never in all eternity, be able to have a one-upmanship over God, by saying you don’t know what it’s like.  It’s already decided.  First of all, God gave up His Son, and for any of you that are parents, it is harder to give up a son than it is to give up yourself.

Now Christ is the actual Creator, He reduced Himself down to the very humans He made, to be just like them.  Except He had the Spirit of God.  So He came down to show us how to live as a human being, under all the duress, stress, and mess and He did it humbly and perfectly.

So He set us an example and He could have stopped there.  He could say I went through hunger, they tried to throw me off cliffs, they slapped Me, they mocked Me. They put spears in My side and He could have zapped them in a second.  He let them do that for 33 years and never fought back, and never had a evil thought against them. 

He showed you how to live and He could have quit.  But after He did all that, He said now I’m going to die for you, because I love you. Think about it, He didn’t have to die, nobody took His life. He said I lay down My life and “no one takes it from Me,” (John 10:18). He died to prove to us that He loves us. He didn’t have to, He just did it. So we would know that He loves us. We can’t say, but our Creator had it made in the shade, no.  He came down and was under the same temptations, under the same rules and regulations and then He went to the cross and died, voluntarily.  He says in effect, if that doesn’t show that I love you, I don’t know what else I can do.

So that’s what He did and that’s why He died, because He loved us and He wanted to prove it.  So He died for our sins.  God accepted that for a sacrifice, but it was a voluntary sacrifice.  It wouldn’t have needed to be done, they did it that way, but it didn’t need to be done that way.

They (Israelites) were forgiven for a whole year, just by the sprinkling of a goat’s blood, in the Holy place on the Day of Pentecost. But Christ wanted to prove to the human race that He was every bit as good of a man, as any other man was.  He doesn’t sit in His ivory tower telling us how great He is. He did it as a man. God became a man and died, because He loves His creation and He wanted us to know He loves us.

This is awesome stuff.  It’s like a fairytale from Greek mythology, but it’s not, it the Bible.
--------------------------------

Here is all of the 2006 Mobile Conference on audio, I believe that excerpt came from the first audio.
Saturday morning part #1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession1.mp3
Saturday morning part #2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession2.mp3
Saturday morning part #3: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession3.mp3
Saturday morning part #4: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession4.mp3
Saturday morning part #5: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession5.mp3
Saturday morning part #6: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession6.mp3
Saturday afternoon part #7: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession7.mp3
Sunday morning part #8A: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8A.mp3
Sunday morning part #8B: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession8B.mp3
Sunday morning part #9: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession9.mp3
Sunday morning part #10: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nash08ConfSession10.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat


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eggi

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  • Posts: 497
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2009, 04:31:49 AM »

Hi all! Interesting question this one. Not a stupid question at all! It's an important question, since we are repeatedly brainwashed by Christendom saying that Jesus HAD TO DIE, because of our sins. I'm thinking that He learned from what He suffered here in this world, the Scriptures says He was perfected. That might have been before His life as a man, I'm not 100% sure. Anyway it's like Ray said, He did it to show us love and compassion. It's a lie of the Devil that since Christ died for us we don't need any works, just faith. So many people are preaching that these days. Important question and answers. God bless you all! Eirik
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Here’s how to tell if you have faith; how do you live… what do you do… what do you accomplish in life… what are your goals… What is there about you that proves that you have this faith and belief inside of you? What?

9440geoff

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2009, 09:36:15 AM »

Hi Wonderment, welcome to the forum.

After such excellent replies there is nothing I can add except that this is the way that God, in His wisdom, has decided to reveal himself to us.

Pro 3:19  The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.


A phrase that springs to mind from a bible study course I did many years ago is: "History is His story." God is the Author and He has decided to write it this way. I find this helpful to remember when all manner of things happen that I can't understand.

Geoff
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kenny

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2009, 11:56:20 AM »

Sin brings death. where was his sin

kenny
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2009, 12:38:00 PM »


Hi Kenny,

Not sure if that was a question or a statement, but here is a explanation for any that might need it.

2Co 5:21  For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (KJV)

This translation in the KJV has confused many people into believing that Christ was actually made sin before He died on the cross.  Ray has a whole Bible study showing that He was made a sin OFFERING.  Here is an excerpt form the transcript 'Was Christ Made Sin?'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html --------

Jesus Christ was not ‘the sin’ of the world offered on the cross, He died on the cross FOR our sins.  Can you not understand simple words?  An offering was a sacrifice back in Israel ‘for’ the sin.  That’s why it was not called sin, it was called a SIN OFFERING. 

Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;

“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).

“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).

This is the proper order too.  It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”
v
v
Now then do we have a second confirmation?  Do we have a second confirmation that Christ was made sin?  Is there another phrase ‘made sin’ anywhere in the entirety of the Bible?  No there is not.

But Christ was made a sin offering, as the Concordant and the Diaglott and others tell us.  Do we have a second confirmation of 2 Tim. 5:21, that Christ was made ‘a sin offering’?  Since it cannot be “its OWN explanation” (2 Peter 1:21).  As a matter of fact we do. You knew that didn’t you.  In Isaiah 52 in my Bible there is this heading, it’s in italics so it’s not inspired.  But that’s one reason I love this Nelson Bible of mine, because it gives you all of these headings, so you don’t have to look through pages to find it. The heading reads The Messiah’s Atonement, so the publishers of this Bible understand beginning in this verse these Scriptures are talking about who?  The Messiah! 

Isa 52:13  Behold, My servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
v. 14  As many were astonished at Thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men:
v. 15  So shall He sprinkle many nations;

Isa 53:1  Who hath believed our report?

Yeah, who is going to believe this Scripture, of those who are following this dirty religion, who is going to believe it?  I’ll tell you who will believe it, not one.  Why?  Because they are following a man and they have idols of the heart and they have no real interest in the Truths of God, but only those idols. 

Isa 53:2  For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
v. 3  He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows (is this stuff talking about Jesus Christ? The New Testament tells us these Scriptures are speaking of Jesus Christ), and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
v. 4  Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows (it doesn‘t say anything about carrying His own sins, does it - ours): yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Yes He was afflicted, but the wrath of God?  No.  You won’t read wrath of God, it is through many afflictions, many trials, many tribulations that we enter the kingdom of God.  We do not enter the kingdom of God through wrath!

Isa 53:5  But He was wounded for our transgressions (whose transgressions? His?  Ours!), He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
v.6  All we like sheep have gone astray (Did Jesus like a sheep go astray?); we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The only iniquity on Jesus Christ shoulders was ours, not His.

Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter (what is that ? That’s a sacrifice isn’t it, wait a minute was He brought as a Lamb of sin? I mean you just don’t read the nonsense do you), and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opens not His mouth.
v. 8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living (what because He was sin? Because He was born in iniquity, birthed in iniquity conceived in sin? Because He was marred in His makers hand? Because He had to be crushed by the wrath of God? Where do you see such evil dirty religion in these verses): for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
v. 9  And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

Well where were all these sins of Jesus Christ found then?  If He actually was sin, the personification of sin, where were they?  They were not in His actions, they were not in His mouth, they were not in His mind, they were not in His heart, where were they?

Isa.  53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief…

We are looking for a confirmation of 2 Cor. 5:21 where Christ was made a sin offering.  Now that is what it needs to be translated a ‘sin offering.’  Do we have a second confirmation of that?

v. 10 …When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Just let that sink in.  Was Jesus Christ made sin or was He made an OFFERING for sin?  Well you just read it, “an offering for sin.”  There it is!  You can’t deny that. 
What is that?  That’s GOSPEL!  Paul said I gave you the gospel, “how that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture” (1 Cor.15:1-3).  How did He die according to the Scripture?  He was made an offering for sin! 

Isa.  53:11 …for He shall bear their iniquities [not His iniquities].

Jesus Christ did not have any iniquities before the cross or during the cross.

v. 12 …He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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lilitalienboi16

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 12:52:20 PM »

Someone can tell you they love you and buy you all the things in the world but in the end if all they are doing is BUYING your love with materialistic things aren't you going to doubt how deep their love for you actually is?

Take for instance a child, that child is told by the parent that they are loved. However, the parent never actually does anything for the child other than buy them what they want. When in reality all the child wants from the parent is a little time spent with said parent, not money, not toys, etc..

Now the parent never does anything for this child that is genuine, they simply give the child what they want but they don't actually spend time with the child. So the child is left to wonder if the parent really loves them as they claim they do.

So now ask yourself, What could God, as a Father do that would remove all doubt in your mind that as a PARENT a FATHER that He actually loves you?

Jesus died for our sins the way He did so that one day you can't go to God and say, "Well God you don't really love me. Sorry you don't. What did yo do to prove that you actually truly love me?"

Now that Jesus died a most painful death He can say; I loved you SO MUCH that I DIED for YOU.

So God leave any room in your mind for how deep His love for you is? Is their any room left to think that maybe God doesn't really love us at all?

"God THUS LOVES the world that He sent His only begotten Son..."

God bless,

Alex
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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2009, 01:28:23 PM »


Hello wonderment,


John 15:13 Greater love than this has no one, that anyone may be laying down his soul for his friends.


The Bottom Line is:

Jesus didn't have to die that way.

God didn't have to sacrifice His Son by having Him beaten and crucified.

He could have done it another way... But He chose this way to show us that He loves us.



God Bless,

Christopher  8)
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kenny

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2009, 02:32:00 AM »


Hi Kenny,

Not sure if that was a question or a statement, but here is a explanation for any that might need it.

2Co 5:21  For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (KJV)

This translation in the KJV has confused many people into believing that Christ was actually made sin before He died on the cross.  Ray has a whole Bible study showing that He was made a sin OFFERING.  Here is an excerpt form the transcript 'Was Christ Made Sin?'


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html --------

Jesus Christ was not ‘the sin’ of the world offered on the cross, He died on the cross FOR our sins.  Can you not understand simple words?  An offering was a sacrifice back in Israel ‘for’ the sin.  That’s why it was not called sin, it was called a SIN OFFERING. 

Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;

“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).

“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).

This is the proper order too.  It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”
v
v
Now then do we have a second confirmation?  Do we have a second confirmation that Christ was made sin?  Is there another phrase ‘made sin’ anywhere in the entirety of the Bible?  No there is not.

But Christ was made a sin offering, as the Concordant and the Diaglott and others tell us.  Do we have a second confirmation of 2 Tim. 5:21, that Christ was made ‘a sin offering’?  Since it cannot be “its OWN explanation” (2 Peter 1:21).  As a matter of fact we do. You knew that didn’t you.  In Isaiah 52 in my Bible there is this heading, it’s in italics so it’s not inspired.  But that’s one reason I love this Nelson Bible of mine, because it gives you all of these headings, so you don’t have to look through pages to find it. The heading reads The Messiah’s Atonement, so the publishers of this Bible understand beginning in this verse these Scriptures are talking about who?  The Messiah! 

Isa 52:13  Behold, My servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
v. 14  As many were astonished at Thee; His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men:
v. 15  So shall He sprinkle many nations;

Isa 53:1  Who hath believed our report?

Yeah, who is going to believe this Scripture, of those who are following this dirty religion, who is going to believe it?  I’ll tell you who will believe it, not one.  Why?  Because they are following a man and they have idols of the heart and they have no real interest in the Truths of God, but only those idols. 

Isa 53:2  For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: He hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
v. 3  He is despised and rejected of men; a Man of sorrows (is this stuff talking about Jesus Christ? The New Testament tells us these Scriptures are speaking of Jesus Christ), and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
v. 4  Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows (it doesn‘t say anything about carrying His own sins, does it - ours): yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Yes He was afflicted, but the wrath of God?  No.  You won’t read wrath of God, it is through many afflictions, many trials, many tribulations that we enter the kingdom of God.  We do not enter the kingdom of God through wrath!

Isa 53:5  But He was wounded for our transgressions (whose transgressions? His?  Ours!), He was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon Him; and with His stripes we are healed.
v.6  All we like sheep have gone astray (Did Jesus like a sheep go astray?); we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

The only iniquity on Jesus Christ shoulders was ours, not His.

Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth: He is brought as a Lamb to the slaughter (what is that ? That’s a sacrifice isn’t it, wait a minute was He brought as a Lamb of sin? I mean you just don’t read the nonsense do you), and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He opens not His mouth.
v. 8  He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare His generation? for He was cut off out of the land of the living (what because He was sin? Because He was born in iniquity, birthed in iniquity conceived in sin? Because He was marred in His makers hand? Because He had to be crushed by the wrath of God? Where do you see such evil dirty religion in these verses): for the transgression of my people was He stricken.
v. 9  And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death; because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.

Well where were all these sins of Jesus Christ found then?  If He actually was sin, the personification of sin, where were they?  They were not in His actions, they were not in His mouth, they were not in His mind, they were not in His heart, where were they?

Isa.  53:10  Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief…

We are looking for a confirmation of 2 Cor. 5:21 where Christ was made a sin offering.  Now that is what it needs to be translated a ‘sin offering.’  Do we have a second confirmation of that?

v. 10 …When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.

Just let that sink in.  Was Jesus Christ made sin or was He made an OFFERING for sin?  Well you just read it, “an offering for sin.”  There it is!  You can’t deny that. 
What is that?  That’s GOSPEL!  Paul said I gave you the gospel, “how that Jesus Christ died for our sins according to the Scripture” (1 Cor.15:1-3).  How did He die according to the Scripture?  He was made an offering for sin! 

Isa.  53:11 …for He shall bear their iniquities [not His iniquities].

Jesus Christ did not have any iniquities before the cross or during the cross.

v. 12 …He bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

--------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat


Thanks Kat
i will go through the whole paper to enlarge my understanding.
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Roy Martin

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2009, 11:14:07 PM »

Wow! good stuff. :)
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MePogo

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2009, 01:32:40 AM »

This isn't a stupid question at all.  This turned out a great and meaningful thread.  Thanks.

Love,
Pogo
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meee

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2009, 12:40:42 PM »

 Hey wonderment, welcome to the forum.
       I don't think there are any stupid questions, we are all learning, so never not ask. We all started somewhere. Who knows ,your question might be one someone else was wondering about, but didn't ask. Soooo, good job in posting your question.
      God bless ya,
hugs,meee
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ez2u

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2009, 02:04:12 AM »


2Co 5:21  For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is why Jesus Christ die for our sins
 that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him   Praise God!
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2009, 02:15:18 AM »



2Co 5:21  For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

This is why Jesus Christ die for our sins
 that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him   Praise God!

Hi Peggy,

This is the proper translation for that verse, Christ was not made sin; He was a sin offering.

2Co 5:21 (CLV)
For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

See Was Christ made sin?

Excerpt from: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html

Yes sin was imputed to Him in that… like this, did Christ sin?  No.  Did we sin?  Yes.  Is there a penalty?  Yes.  Christ said, I’ll take your sin and I’ll pay your penalty.  Did now, Christ sin?  No.  Is He guilty of sin?  No.  He just said I’ll pay the penalty for them.  He died FOR us, the Bible says.  He didn’t die in our place instead.  He didn’t die so we don’t have to die.  He died FOR us.  That is a positive act. 


                                       OFFERINGS

Years ago I learned that that Scripture is not proper.  Yes it does translate the word for word, like we find it in the manuscript.  But that’s not a proper translation.  I just showed you word for word is not a proper way to translate.  That will not fill the bill.  In some areas it will fill the bill and in some areas it will not.  I didn’t take the time to get the examples where you could plainly see that there are other words needed or you are not translating at all. 

So I learned that this means ‘to be made a sin offering’ and not to be made sin itself.  There's a difference between sin and a sin offering.
Now let me make this as simple as I can make it. 
If a man beat his child let’s say, mercilessly.  Two witnesses, in the Old Testament… so somebody says, ‘you can’t beat your child like that.’ 
Somebody else steals something or somebody did something (not of a capital punishment, because then they would stone them to death) let just say it infringes in some area, maybe they spoke harshly to their wife (there was no death penalty for that), but it was a sin.
 
Now there was such a thing as a sin offering, even though you were guilty for sin (beating your child - stealing - spoke harshly to your wife) you could give an offering to God and He would forgive you that sin.  Why?  Because you didn’t commit it?  No, you did commit it.  Well then why, if you commit a sin and you are guilty of the sin, why doesn’t He hold it against you?  Because of the sin offering! 

Now they offered every morning of everyday a lamb or a goat, it was a sin offering.  That goat was offered in behalf of somebody’s sin or everybody’s sin, whatever the case might be.  It might be an individual offering, it might be the morning offering for the whole congregation, the animal is OFFERED for the sin.  Now when that animal is offered for the sin is that animal guilty of speaking harshly to it’s wife?  Come on this is not rocket science.  It’s a sin OFFERING, it’s not ‘the’ sin.  Jesus Christ is not ‘the’ sin of the world.  This is rank heresy.  This is the worse kind of teaching I have ever heard in my life.  This is the bottom of the barrel, the dredges, this is dirty religion. 

Jesus Christ was not ‘the sin’ of the world offered on the cross, He died on the cross FOR our sins.  Can you not understand simple words?  An offering was a sacrifice back in Israel ‘for’ the sin.  That’s why it was not called sin, it was called a SIN OFFERING. 

Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;

“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).

“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).

This is the proper order too.  It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”

george :).

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Marky Mark

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Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2009, 10:30:15 AM »

Quote
2Co 5:21 (CLV)
For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."


George,thanks for posting the correct translation. Some of the newcomers may have been confused on that particular verse.


Peace...Mark
« Last Edit: September 12, 2009, 10:31:40 AM by Marky Mark »
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Astrapho

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Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2009, 01:27:01 PM »


Quote from:  from various people
2Co 5:21  For he hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Btw, in the catholic church we're playing this song called "here I am to worship" (most of you should have heard of it by now :D ), and one of the verses say:

I'll never know how much it cost
To see my sin upon that cross


Shows how much difference one error in translation makes... :(


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yudonsay

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Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2009, 11:00:03 PM »

wonderment, good question.  I would also like to know the same.  The answers so far are the regular stuff I get from pastors and others that I ask.  Quoting scriptures with explanations that still do not tell me the necessity or value (as apposed to say, Jesus deciding not to go through with his death) of dieing.  I would understand this as an example only, a statement of the passion God has for us to set up such an example for us to follow as a standard of excellence necessary for us to be called righteous but this would be problematic with being saved by works. Stating he died for my sin is a quote and I see the obvious correlation to the sacrificial laws but still do not see the necessity of any person dieing to remove anything. The animals paid for nothing, they were for an example, prophecy and staging of what was to take place with Jesus. Except for the Israelites obedience to the laws the animals and sacrifices did nothing, there blood was of no value to forgive or remove any sins. Why would God require Jesus' blood? How does this material or act rescind my Sin?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2009, 11:05:00 PM by yudonsay »
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Akira329

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Re: A seemingly stupid question
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2009, 12:43:38 AM »

I would understand this as an example only, a statement of the passion God has for us to set up such an example for us to follow as a standard of excellence necessary for us to be called righteous but this would be problematic with being saved by works.

Explain how this is problematic?

As for your other statement:
Why would God require Jesus' blood? How does this material or act rescind my Sin?

I think your asking why Christ is the perfect sacrifice?? I might be wrong? Hope these verses help:

Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Antaiwan
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