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Author Topic: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11  (Read 2960 times)

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EKnight

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1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« on: October 08, 2009, 01:39:47 PM »

I have been falling away from my studies so I decided to start where I first began this journey with Lazarus and the Rich man parable.  As always, reading leads to more reading and then questions.  Ugh!!!

Here is my stumbling block of the day:

1 Cor. 15:20 "Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing."

Miriam-Webster definition of repose;

1a. to lie at rest. b. to lie dead. c. to remain still or concealed.

2. to take a rest.

3. archaic: rely

4. to rest for support: lie

Now John 11: 11-14

11These things he said, and after this he saith to them, `Lazarus our friend hath fallen asleep, but I go on that I may awake him;'

 12therefore said his disciples, `Sir, if he hath fallen asleep, he will be saved;'

 13but Jesus had spoken about his death, but they thought that about the repose of sleep he speaketh.

 14Then, therefore, Jesus said to them freely, `Lazarus hath died;

And John 11: 39-44

39Jesus saith, `Take ye away the stone;' the sister of him who hath died -- Martha -- saith to him, `Sir, already he stinketh, for he is four days dead;'

 40Jesus saith to her, `Said I not to thee, that if thou mayest believe, thou shalt see the glory of God?'

 41They took away, therefore, the stone where the dead was laid, and Jesus lifted his eyes upwards, and said, `Father, I thank Thee, that Thou didst hear me;

 42and I knew that Thou always dost hear me, but, because of the multitude that is standing by, I said [it], that they may believe that Thou didst send me.'

 43And these things saying, with a loud voice he cried out, `Lazarus, come forth;'

 44and he who died came forth, being bound feet and hands with grave-clothes, and his visage with a napkin was bound about; Jesus saith to them, `Loose him, and suffer to go.'

Now then, how could Christ be the firstfruit of them that slept when clearly Lazarus was among the dead and was brought back by Christ Himself?

And secondly, does repose mean dead or asleep/at rest?  The word repose is used in the same sentence as dead but I thought death was "like" sleep so how then can the two words be used in the same sentence in regard to Lazarus?

I hope I explained my confusion coherently.  And as a side note, I know that this Lazarus is not the same as the Lazarus in the Rich man parable and it's just a coincidence that that's what I was reading at the time confusion set in. :)

Eileen

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Samson

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 05:05:45 PM »

Hi Eileen,

             Don't forget, There were several Resurrections performed by Jesus and some of the Apostles. Of these individuals eventually died, a second time. They were only Resurrected back as Fleshly Human Beings. Here's a list of some of them: 1) The Widow of Nain's Son. 2) The Army Officer Jairus- Daughter. 3) Eutychus(The guy who fell out the window listening to Paul). 4) Lazarus(You already know about). 5) The Saints that were raised from the Tomb so all could see when Jesus was on the Cross. I probably forgot some that were given a Ressurection, some in the Old Testament Times, MAYBE- Elisha. I'm sure someone can update this list.

                                   Kind Regards, Samson.
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gmik

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Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 09:14:50 PM »

Eileen, I am reading you a lot tonite...you are on my heart.... funny thing tho, Lazarus was the 1st thing I read on BT that completely blew me away and changed my life!!! (but I haven't read it since!) ??? :P
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EKnight

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2009, 12:06:30 AM »

Oh Yes Mark!!! How could I have forgotten??!!!!  I have read more than once that Christ being the firstfruit meaning conversion of the Spirit and that those who were resurrected from the dead were only made alive in the flesh.  How foolish I feel  :-[ :-[

Quote
I do not see death used as a definition here.

But regarding the definition, 1 Cor. 15:20  " Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing.

It just looks to me that the above scripture defines dead as reposing within the sentence itself. We know that Christ actually died so therefore reposing must mean dead. No?  Otherwise Christ was only the firstfruit of those "resting" according to strongs definition.  Right?

I hope this came out right, I was interrupted while trying to convey all this.

Eileen
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Marky Mark

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2009, 11:07:04 AM »

Hi Eileen.

  Looking back through different translations of 1 Cor. 15:20 the word sleep or slept is used more often than the word repose.From the Strong's definition I would have to think that he was trying to convey to take a rest or to refresh,but since the word seems to reflect more of a sleep as shown in Scripture,and sleep means death ,then I would have to say that repose can and does mean death as described in the bible.

Also from Rays paper.  AN ENCOURAGING THOUGHT ABOUT DEATH


http://bible-truths.com/death.htm

DEATH IS SLEEP

I was tempted to make that caption: DEATH IS LIKE SLEEP, but that would be Scripturally inaccurate, as nowhere do the Scriptures state that death is "like" sleep, but rather that death IS SLEEP. God prepared Moses for death with the following:

"And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, you shall sleep [Heb: shakab—to lie down, to rest, to sleep, to decease] with your fathers…" (Deut. 31:16).

David said:

"Consider and hear me, O Lord my God: lighten my eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death" (Psalm 13:3).

When Lazarus was dead (John 11:14), Jesus said:

"Our friend Lazarus sleeps: but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep" (John 11:11).



Thanks for the inquiry,helped me also. :)

Peace...Mark
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Lorine

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Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 09:46:21 PM »

 ???
I had a thought after I read Reply #2 from Samson. I hope this doesn't get too far off the subject.
He mentioned in his list of those Resurrected back as Fleshly Human
Beings #5 "The Saints that were raised from the tomb so all could
see when Jesus was on the cross". Matt. 27:52+53 says "And the
graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection".
They never came out until after his resurrection.  Could they not
be the first part of the First Resurrection and have risen with spiritual bodies.  Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection.   Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive".  Jesus told
Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended". Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection.  What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"
Hope you can help,
Lorine
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 10:43:29 PM »

???
I had a thought after I read Reply #2 from Samson. I hope this doesn't get too far off the subject.
He mentioned in his list of those Resurrected back as Fleshly Human
Beings #5 "The Saints that were raised from the tomb so all could
see when Jesus was on the cross". Matt. 27:52+53 says "And the
graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection".
They never came out until after his resurrection.  Could they not
be the first part of the First Resurrection and have risen with spiritual bodies.

Hello Lorine,

The saints that were resurrected were risen in physical bodies and later died. Only at the 'Last Trump' will the dead be raised in spiritual bodies:

1 Cor 15:52-53  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Like Paul states, only Christ has immortality [1 Tim 6:16]

  Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection.   Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive".

These saints were for a testament that God could raise anyone from the dead...again, as Paul states, the firstfruits are gathered at 'His coming'

1 Cor 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

  Jesus told Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended".

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,840.msg6639.html#msg6639):

Dear William:
A friend asked me about this just a couple of weeks ago.  The Father resides in "the heavens."  The heavens are a realm, not a geographical location.
 
Jesus did not say "touch me not," as we have proof to the contrary in this very same incident recorded in Matt. 28:9-10:
 
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail.  And the came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET [clearly they WERE 'touching' Him], and worshipped Him."
 
The first definition of the Greek word 'haptomia' is "to ATTACH oneself." As we clearly see in their "Holding Him by the feet."  Rotherham translates this: "...be not DETAINING me..."  James Moffatt translates it: "Cease CLINING to Me."  The American Standard Version has: "Stop HOLDING ON to Me..."
 
Apparently, Jesus was resurrected just moments before the women arrived at the tomb.  When they finally recognized Him as Lord, they GRABBED HIM and wouldn't let Him go--worshipping (as He was clearly resurrected from the dead, hence, truly, the Son of God).
 
The thing that Jesus told His disciples a couple of days earlier was that He must RETURN to His Father. And the reason was two-fold:  [1]  To receive BACK the glory which He had with His Father from the beginning, and [2] He told them that unless He "went away (to the father) the Comforter would not come to them.
 
Jesus appeared three time to His disciples within the first 12 hours: [1] To the women at the tomb, {2] To the two men traveling on the road to Emaus, and [3] Sunday evening when the disciples (save Thomas) where gathered together behind closed doors. At that very time, Jesus gave his Apostles (not His all of His disciples, but His APOSTLES) the Holy Spirit:
 
"Then the same day at evening being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut...He said unto them Peace be unto you: as My Father has sent Me, even so send I you.  And when He had said this, He breathed OLN THEM, AND SAID UNTO THEM, receive ye the holy spirit..but Thomas was not with them" (John 20:19-24).
 
Talk to you later, Lary,
Ray


Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection.

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,839.msg6638.html#msg6638):

Dear Dave:

Your teachings are neither spiritual, nor logical, nor Scriptural. Perhaps you should study your bible a little more.

What did any of the ancient patriarchs know of "saving grace?"  Answer:  Nothing!  And why is that? Because: "For the LAW was given by Moses, but GRACE AND TRUTH came by Jesus Christ"  (John 1:18).  Grace did not come before Christ, hence: No one was saved before Christ.  "These ALL died in faith [how many? 'ALL.'] in faith [did they all have faith? Yes.  Are we 'saved by faith?'  NO--'By  GRACE ye are saved....' Eph. 2:8.  Did they nonetheless receive the promise of immortal life?  NO....] NOT having received the promises..." (Heb. 11:13).

Could not the Patriarchs receive salvation through the faith that they had BEFORE Jesus came to die for their sins?  NO.  No Patriarch will be saved except through God's chosen elect: "And these ALL [how many? 'ALL'] having obtained a good report through faith, received NOT THE PROMISES: God having provided some better thing for US, that THEY without US should NOT be made perfect [Gk: 'complete.']"  (Heb. 11:13 & 39-40).

Well then, if their faith and good report did not and cannot make them 'complete,' pray what can make them 'complete?'  Answer:  "And ye ['ye' believers in Jesus, not those who knew not Jesus and did not have Jesus live in them, and who were not 'crucified with Christ,' etc., etc., etc.]...and ye are COMPLETE [how?] IN  H-I-M  [JESUS]"  (Col. 2:10), etc., etc., etc.

Sometimes, Dave, it is also good to have a 'teacher' to help you understand the things that you miss by studying on your own.

God be with you,

Ray


  What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"
Hope you can help,
Lorine

This was a quote from Psalms 68:

Ps 68:18-19  Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

Here's another scriptural witness

James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.


Hope this helps,

Marques


P.S.  Welcome to the forum  :)
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2009, 12:11:23 AM »


Hi Lorine,

Quote
Jesus was the firstfruit of those that slept, but they never rose until after his resurrection.   Could this go along with "He ascended on high and led captivity captive".  Jesus told
Mary "Touch me not I have not yet ascended". Could the old testament saints be resurrected already as the first part of the first
resurrection.  What does it mean "He ascended on high and led captivity captive"

Here is an email that give a really good explanation of what it meant by "He ascended on high and led captivity captive."

http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm ---------------

Now then, just how did Jesus, "lead captivity captive" (Eph. 4:08)?

This is, of course, a quotation from Psalm 68:18.  After reading Psalm 68:18 & 19, read verse 20, "He that is our God is the GOD OF SALVATION; and unto God the Lord belong the issues from DEATH."

There is the answer to this enigmatic verse in Ephesians 4:8.  Notice that this verse does not say that Jesus "sets captives free." That is not to say that "captives" are not set free, but that is not what THIS particular verse is saying. It is "captivity" ITSELF that is "captured." Notice the Concordant New Literal New Testament's treatment of this verse:  "Ascending on high, He captures captivity, And gives gifts to mankind."  So it is definitely "captivity" itself that is "captured," not "captives set free" as the Church suggests.

Now Strong's is correct in that "captivity" does, make captive, take captive or captures. And those who ARE made captive, taken captive, or captured, are called "CAPTIVES."  Hope I didn't loose you yet.

And so "captivity" is the instrumentality that brings about "captured captives," if you will.  God is here labeling all the evils of the world under the one word "captivity." There is a new spiritual law mentioned under the New Covenant called "The Law of Liberty" (James 1:25).  Notice that while the "false prophets" of II Pet. 2:1, "...promise them LIBERTY, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the SAME  is he brought IN BONDAGE" (Verse 20). Rev. 13:10 says, "He that leads into captivity shall GO into captivity...."

Satan, Religion, the World, our own Carnal Mind--all LEAD US INTO CAPTIVITY, hence we become CAPTIVES.  Jesus Christ took ALL CAPTIVITY--ALL THAT CAPTURES, and made a CAPTIVE OF IT ALL.  Just how did He do this?  (1) "He also DESCENDED first into the LOWER PART OF THE EARTH" (Eph. 4:9). This "descending into the lower part [the very HEART] of the earth" was the very sign of Christ's Messiahship!   "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man [Christ] in three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH" (Matt. 12:40). Contrary to what even I used to believe, this verse is not speaking of the "length" of time that Jesus would be buried, but rather the DEPTH OF SUFFERING He would endure during that three day period of Passover when they crucified our Lord. (Remember how He sweat BLOOD in the Garden)?

The trials and temptations in the desert with Satan cannot be compared with the suffering of those three days of Passover that Jesus went through. So what did it all accomplish?   EVERYTHING!  John 16:33, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have PEACE. In the world ye shall have tribulation: BUT BE OF GOOD CHEER; I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD"!!! JESUS CHRIST LEAD CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE!!! He overcame and CONQUERED ALL ENEMIES, including DEATH ITSELF!  And truly, He now has GREAT AND MARVELOUS GIFTS TO GIVE UNTO ALL MANKIND, not the least of which is I Tim. 2:4, and 4:10!

And of the immediate gifts Christ gave, we read:

"And He gave some apostles and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the PERFECTING [MATURING] of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Eph. 4:11-12).

And finally this:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the broken-hearted, to preach DELIVERANCE TO THE CAPTIVES, and recovering of sight to the [spiritually] blind, to set at LIBERTY them that are bruised [crushed by the burden of this world, which Christ OVERCAME], To preach the acceptable year of the Lord ... And He [Jesus] began to say unto them, 'THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS" (Luke 4:18-19 & 21).

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

« Last Edit: October 29, 2009, 12:28:15 AM by Kat »
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daywalker

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Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2009, 02:50:27 PM »

Oh Yes Mark!!! How could I have forgotten??!!!!  I have read more than once that Christ being the firstfruit meaning conversion of the Spirit and that those who were resurrected from the dead were only made alive in the flesh.  How foolish I feel  :-[ :-[

Quote
I do not see death used as a definition here.

But regarding the definition, 1 Cor. 15:20  " Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the firstfruit of those who are reposing.

It just looks to me that the above scripture defines dead as reposing within the sentence itself. We know that Christ actually died so therefore reposing must mean dead. No?  Otherwise Christ was only the firstfruit of those "resting" according to strongs definition.  Right?

I hope this came out right, I was interrupted while trying to convey all this.

Eileen



Hey Eileen,

Just wanted to add these Scriptures to further confirm what Mark had stated:


From the Rotherham's Emphasized Bible:

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—

45 Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.



Daywalker  8)
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Lorine

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2009, 10:09:24 PM »

 ???
Very knowledgeable answers, I learned much.
One more question though.  What does it mean when it says
"Jesus preached to the souls that were in prison that were sometimes disobedient in the days of Noah"?
I don't understand when he did this.
Thanks,
Lorine
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: 1 Cor. 15:20 vs John 11
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2009, 08:36:39 AM »

???
Very knowledgeable answers, I learned much.
One more question though.  What does it mean when it says
"Jesus preached to the souls that were in prison that were sometimes disobedient in the days of Noah"?
I don't understand when he did this.
Thanks,
Lorine


Hello Lorine,

I believe these are this is the passage your are referring to:

1 Pet 3:17-20  For it is better to be suffering for doing good, if the will of God may be willing, than for doing evil, seeing that Christ also, for our sakes, once died concerning sins, the just for the sake of the unjust, that He may be leading us to God; being put to death, indeed, in flesh, yet vivified in spirit, in which, being gone to the spirits in jail also, He heralds to those once stubborn, when the patience of God awaited in the days of Noah while the ark was being constructed, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were brought safely through water, [CLV]

I used the Concordant Literal Version because the next scripture helps explain Peter's comments in better detail:

1 Pet 3:21-22  the representation of which, baptism, is now saving you also (not the putting off of the filth of the flesh, but the inquiry of a good conscience to God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, Who is at God's right hand, being gone into heaven, messengers and authorities and powers being subjected to Him

As Peter points out, the flood in Noah's time is an representation or example [all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition...1 Cor 10:11] of baptism. Peter says God awaited with much patience, as He does today to save a few [Elect].

When the Lord talks about releasing those in captivity or in bondage, it always speaks of a higher, spiritual meaning. For example:

Luke 13:15-16  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his a@@ from the stall, and lead him away to watering? And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

John 8:32-36  ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Rom 8:20-21  the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


The phrase 'being gone to the spirits in jail also, He heralds to those once stubborn' [from 1 Pet 3:19-20] is specifically talking about Gentiles:

Eph 2:13  now in Christ Jesus ye [Gentiles] who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ...

Rom 11:30  For as ye
[Gentiles] in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief

1 Pet 2:9-10  ye
[Gentiles] are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy

Paul and Peter both testify that the gospel is coming to the Gentiles, by the grace of God...to save a few, as in Noah's time. And as the flood destroyed all flesh in the land, our spiritual baptism destroys all flesh, IN US. But we are saved in the ark, which is a picture of Christ.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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