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Rev. Chapter 10 verse 20
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: AK4 on November 10, 2009, 10:56:55 AM ---This isnt to keep the debate going or nothing, but i think you guys are missing some of it (or maybe its just me). Here in the next installment Ray clearly states what i have been saying.
Its not a literal second (or another) beast. Its showing ones progression coming out of the sea of humanity (the lowest realm) to the earth realm and hopefully following would be to the heavenly realm. Notice what Ray teaches on this in red below:
--- End quote ---
Hello Anthony,
I know what you mean Anthony as I've highlighted it again, but it still does not make it true. John clearly says 'ANOTHER BEAST' [Rev 13:11], not the same one from the sea coming onto the earth. One beast rises from the sea [Rev 13:1], the other comes out of the earth [Rev 13:11].
Only the first beast is said to have a wound on one of it's head [Rev 13:3]. Only the first beast has 7 heads and 10 horns and upon his horns 10 crowns. [Rev 13:1]. Only the first beast was it given to make war with the saints and overcome them, power over all kindreds, tongues, and nations [Rev 13:7]. Only the first beast is who all who dwell on the earth will worship [Rev 13:8].
Now then, the 2nd beast has 2 horns like a lamb [Rev 13:11]. Only the 2nd beast CAUSES those on the earth to worship the 1st beast with the wound [Rev 13:12]. Only the 2nd beast makes fire come down from heaven in the sight of men to deceive those on the earth to worship the 1st beast which had the wound by the sword [Rev 13:13-14]. Only the 2nd beast CAUSES all to receive the mark of the 1st beast [Rev 13:16-17].
--- Quote from: AK4 on November 10, 2009, 10:56:55 AM ---Now i realise this may be talking of two categories, one represent the called where they fall on Christ and are just broken and become "like a false prophet" and the other represent the chosen where Ray goes on to explain where Christ falls on us and grinds us to powder and then we are able to rebuild our spiritual house on the Rock and move into the heavenly realm.
In Revelations its a parable like the parables in the Gospels. And the parables are about the called and the chosen, the few and the many. In the Gospel parables, its talking of the two categories but even as Ray said we cant be both but we can go from one to the other. I believe this is the same thing in beast parables of Revelations. Notice even how Ray put it:
And going back into the world, "thinking" we know Christ, we then start "prophecying", talking about Him, albeit falsely--like a false prophet to others about a Jesus we think we know.
--- End quote ---
And this highlighted comment above is opposite of what we posted from Revelation. The false prophet causes those to worship THE BEAST...no where in scripture is Jesus likened to a beast.
You state that Ray's teaching agree with this...but Ray clearly teaches (from the scriptures) that the beast is US. Isn't that what Revelation says above in my first comments?
Go to the OT...look at the Kings of Babylon, Assyria, etc...and then LOOK AT THEIR MANY FALSE PROPHETS...do they not ALL speak of worshiping their great kings? That's the shadow, that's the parable.
Thanks,
Marques
AK4:
--- Quote ---Anthony
And going back into the world, "thinking" we know Christ, we then start "prophecying", talking about Him, albeit falsely--like a false prophet to others about a Jesus we think we know.
--- End quote ---
--- Quote ---Marques
And this highlighted comment above is opposite of what we posted from Revelation. The false prophet causes those to worship THE BEAST...no where in scripture is Jesus likened to a beast.
--- End quote ---
Just wanted to clear this up i wasnt saying they were calling Jesus a false prophet but they where prophecying about Jesus falsely.
Anyway here's an email where Ray say something directly about the "false prophet"
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7426.0.html
Dear Robby: As I have over 323 unanswered emails ahead of yours, I will make my COMMENTS... in you email short:
I have some questions here.
Do you believe that Satan (the Devil) and his angels are also going to be reconciled?
COMMENT: Yes, course. They will be "judged" just like everyone else, and in Judgment all will learn "righteousness" (Isa. 26:9, etc., etc., etc.)
What about the Anti-Christ,
COMMENT: Scripturally there is no such thing as "THE antichrist."
False Prophet,
COMMENT: The "false prophet," is not one person, but a system, and yes, they will be severely JUDGED and made right. (Phil. 2:9-11, Eph. 1:10, etc., etc., etc.)
and all of those who take the Mark of the Beast and/or bow before him during the Great Tribulation? Do you believe that they will be reconciled?
COMMENT: Those who take the mark of the beast are virtually the entire population of humanity, so yes, of course, God will judge them and purify their evil and wicked ways.
Then what about John 3:18? It says that he who does not believe is already condemned.
COMMENT: Yes, one is either a believer or a non-believer. The non-believers will be "condemned" which means "judged." In Judgment (Acts 17:31), all will have hope in Christ.
Additionally, In your pages, you state that Sheol and Hades just mean "the grave",
COMMENT: I have NEVER said such a thing. You need to go back and re-read the 60 or 70 pages I have written on the subject of "sheol," and my most recent Installment: "Hades and the Second Death."
and that people who die go to the grave and aren't conscious until the resurrection.
COMMENT: In the grave there is no consciousness, this is true. I learned this from the Scriptures. Did you think that I made this doctrine up by myself?
However, I can't see this as being the case. Although grave is one of the meanings of Sheol and Hades, the primary meaning is "unseen state" or "unseen world". Sheol also means "place of departed spirits". So, Hades/Sheol would have the meaning of "unseen world of spirits" or spirit world. That is, an invisible world that exists parallel to the one that we currently live in. This is known as the spiritual realm.
COMMENT: That is unscriptural heresy (II Pet. 2:1). These are definitions from Dr. Strong and the like, who do not understand how these words are really used in Scripture. Yes, hades/sheol is the "unseen" or "imperceptible" realm of the dead, but it is NOT A WORLD OF SPIRITS. That is unscriptural nonsense, and there is not one Scripture to support such an absurd lie.
I believe in hell as a world of conscious torment. However, I DO NOT believe in the dark age pagan depiction of it.
COMMENT: THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME! The Christian hell came from the Roman hell which came from the Greek hades which came from the Egyptian Amenti. The Christian hell IS THE PAGAN EGYPTIAN UNDERWORLD OF TARTARUS. Where do you come up with this stuff?
In NDE's, hell is not the same for everybody who goes there.
Unfortunately, too many churches still teach this version of it, and they still teach that fire and brimstone is the exclusive type of hell. I believe that fire and sulfur is only one type of hell (as shown in NDE's), but it isn't the only type. Just one of the many types.
There are conmen and con-artists out there such as Mary K. Baxter and Bill Wiese who still promote the pagan image of hell. Their books (Divine Revelation of Hell & 23 Minutes in Hell) are fakes and fabricated fables. They highly resemble Dante's Inferno and Egyptian paganism.
COMMENT: Well get ready for a revelation, because not only does the Christian hell "highly resemble" Dante and Egypt paganism, IT IS DANTE'S AND EGYPT'S PAGANISM!
I personally believe that hell (place of torment) is located in another dimension - that is, within a parallel universe or alternative reality that exists alongside the one that we currently live in. I believe that what is known as the gates of hell (Hades) are the wormholes that have been more recently discovered in Physics. The wormholes explain the tunnel that people travel thru in NDE's. The real Hades isn't anything like Greek Mythology.
COMMENT: You got that right--there is NO PERCEPTION in the real hades (unseen) realm of the dead. Do you still believe that the moon is made out of blue cheese also?
Personally, I feel that the proper name given to what we refer to as hell (as the place of torment) is Tartarus. Tartarus is referred to as the lowest Hades or Sheol. Tartarus is sometimes referred to as the demonic realm because that's where the fallen angels (demons) currently reside at (2 Peter 2:4). The Rich Man & Lazarus story shows that Hades is divided in sections (e.g. torment, bliss).
Like Hades, the real Tartarus isn't anything like Greek Mythology.
COMMENT: Tartarus IS Greek and Egyptian Mythology. That's where it came from, so how is it NOT LIKE where it CAME FROM? Am I going too fast for you?
Gehenna was simply used as a symbol for the fate of the wicked. The fires are out today.
Gehenna isn't the name of the afterlife world of torment. Gehenna is just Greek for the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem.
COMMENT: I believe that is what I myself have said in my papers, is it not?
There's a chance that the Dead Sea is going to be the geographical location for the lake of the fire. Currently, there are no fires burning there, of course, but in the future, it's going to be lit up to serve its function.
COMMENT: NO, there is "no chance in HELL" that the Dead Sea is going to be the geographical location for the lake of fire!
God be with you, and grant to you a little spirit of wisdom,
Ray
In Jesus
Anthony
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: AK4 on November 12, 2009, 02:23:13 PM ---Just wanted to clear this up i wasnt saying they were calling Jesus a false prophet but they where prophecying about Jesus falsely.
Anyway here's an email where Ray say something directly about the "false prophet"
--- End quote ---
Thank you for the clarification Anthony...and also notice that Ray does not teach the 'false prophet' is the same as the beast of the sea nor a 'progression' of it.
Hope all of this helped you,
Marques
aqrinc:
Mark,
That is a very timely piece of Ray's work to re-introduce to us all. I will just mention, reading this and then rereading The books of Matthew, Mark Luke & John; really opens up eyes and ears to what Jesus was Saying and Doing during His Physical Ministry on Earth.
Looks like from hindsight, GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ told The Truth, The Whole Truth And Nothing But The Truth.
2Ti 3:12-17 (RV)
12 Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 and that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness:
17 that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
george. :) :o ::)
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