Romans 1:18-32 Holding The Truth in Unrighteousness

[LiberatedEagle]

Greetings Everyone,

I'm back! Thanks to everyone who prayed for me in my time of struggle; I was so stressed and just tired of life. I was so stressed at one point I wanted to just DIE. However, I thank God for all that He's allowing me to go through because I understand this experience of evil is only to humble me. I remembered Ray's teaching on repentance and the process God uses to draw us to Him. I begin to wrestle in my mind whether or not God was REALLY calling me, then I begin to consider the experiences God has allowed to happen in my life and it just seems obvious that He IS calling me. I just pray that His will be done in my life.. Though I do have a desire to be called and  chosen I recognize pride and arrogance in regards to knowing these truths. Not necessarily by talking down to the Pharisees and Sadducees of Christendom, but just in my heart I feel pride for knowing the truth.  I guess it's ok to be grateful that God has called us to know the deeper things of Him, I just pray this knowledge don't go to my head . Ok now for my question.

Who exactly held the truth in unrighteousness in Romans 1:18: "For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness". Was Paul referring to Jews, Gentiles, or mankind? It seems whoever these people were and/or is are held accountable for their actions because they knew the truth and chose not to fear God, versus being ignorant, blinded and deceived by Satan. Furthermore vs 32 states that these people know the judgment of God, which we believe is the chastisement/correction of God, and still be worthy of death. How can one understand the truths of God and know the judgment of God which brings about righteousness and still not be righteous? My understanding is that it's not given unto to man to know the mystery of the Kingdom, but unto the chosen it has been given. If this scripture is referring to the Jews I could understand that because they witnessed the power of God, however it was impossible for them to live righteous without the Spirit of God. However, the heading for this passage in my bible is "The Gentiles Guilty". Can anyone help me understand verses 18-32?

As some of you already know my father is a minister and he brings this scripture up when trying to prove man has a free will and thus held accountable for their disobedience to God. I understand why he comes to that conclusion, but I also know that man doesn't have a free will. Anyone who has better understanding of this passage please help me to understand.

Peace and Blessings,

Charles

[soberxp]

OK,here we go,once,Unfair things happen to me,I was so anger about the things Later ,cuz I began to lose my temper and shouted out very very loudly:"all ghost come out from hell!!!!!!!!!!" at that time,High in the sky It was just thundering,that's must be the GOD's anger.    I thought such thing that must be "Holding The Truth in Unrighteousness "

hope my bad english that u can understand.

[LiberatedEagle]

 funny

[soberxp]

funny

is it help u to understand man doesn't have a free will?

[aqrinc]

Hi Charles,


First welcome back to the house, your struggles are not strange, actually typical of most on this journey. I am happy to see that you are making progress just like you should journey on.

Read these Scriptures from (GNB), i understand this to be against all mankind who deny GOD and our Lord Jesus Christ. Seeing that the evidence in all of the created things is so plainly laid out, for all to see and reason even from a carnal mind.

Rom 1:16-32 (GNB)
16  I have complete confidence in the gospel; it is God's power to save all who believe, first the Jews and also the Gentiles.
17  For the gospel reveals how God puts people right with himself: it is through faith from beginning to end. As the scripture says, "The person who is put right with God through faith shall live."

18  God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known.

19  God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain.

20  Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!

21  They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.

22  They say they are wise, but they are fools;
23  instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.

24  And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other.
25  They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen.

26  Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts.
27  In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing.

28  Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do.

29  They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip

30  and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents;
31  they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others.

32  They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them.

george.

[LiberatedEagle]

I understand that man doesn't have a free will, but I would just like a little clarification on this scripture. I think I understood what you were saying. You were very angry at one point and yelled "all ghost come out of hell" and then it thundered in the sky. You believed that God was showing you He wasn't pleased with you making such a statement because you know the truths of God. Is that correct?

I hope I didn't offend you with my response "funny" I just pictured you screaming that and then the thunder scaring the crap out of you  . my sense of humor at times.....

[soberxp]

I understand that man doesn't have a free will, but I would just like a little clarification on this scripture. I think I understood what you were saying. You were very angry at one point and yelled "all ghost come out of hell" and then it thundered in the sky. You believed that God was showing you He wasn't pleased with you making such a statement because you know the truths of God. Is that correct?

yeah,right.  BTW "all ghost come out from hell" the Sentence is wrong,right?

I hope I didn't offend you with my response "funny" I just pictured you screaming that and then the thunder scaring the crap out of you  . my sense of humor at times.....

I never thought of it,I know you no offend .

[Kat]

Hi Charles,

Here is an excerpt from the Repentance transcript.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.msg29050.html#msg29050 ----

Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself;  you judge another you do the same things.
v. 2  But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things.
v. 3  And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Twice he mentions it, "You judge another you do the same things."  How can this be?  I mean come on, I never raped a child, how can this be?
Alright let's go back to chapter 1.

Rom 1:18  "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of MEN..."

That word men means humans, human kind or mankind, you could almost put the human race there.

Rom 1:18 "...who by their unrighteousness suppress (means hold back) the truth.
v. 19  For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

There is a conscience among almost all humanity.

Rom 1:21  "because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
v. 22  Professing to be wise, they became fools,
v. 23  and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
v. 24  Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
v. 25  who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator..."

Oh yes, the whole church is doing that.  The church looks upon God as an old man, it says He has long gray hair... the arm of God... hand of God... and eye of God.  They say He has arms and hands, eyes and everything.  They believe that is all literal, that God is an old man and even if they don't put Him in the very physical image of a man they certainly do mentally and morally. I mean they gave God a totally perverted and demented personality and character and then they turn it around and say that demented, evil, foul attitude of this God of theirs is to be worshipped.  You don't see how sick this is?  You don't see the utter sickness of Christianity?  It is so sick!
And yet millions of them are doing wonderful works and good deeds and helping the poor and doing all these things.  There's got to be something there, you know Satan appears as an angel of light.  The "woman" appears as an angel of light decked with gold and silver, riding on the beast.  She looks pretty good, she's wealthy, she's not some slut off the street, not this whore.  This whore is wealthy you know and all decked with silver and gold.  You read that back in Rev. 11.  Continuing on.   

Rom 1:24  "Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies between themselves,"

Notice it said God gave them up, well you say that this is the work of God and it is, God gave them up to uncleanness.  How did He do it though?

People accuse me day and night on my site, they say, 'you say God makes people rape little children, is that what you are saying Ray?'  They know I'm not, but they like to gleam from my teachings, that's the bottom line of what your saying.  "God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts..."  God doesn't have to make people sin, they volunteer, they're sinning machines.  I've said so many times mankind is sinning machines.

I think it was Hosea Ballou, Pastor of the Universalist Church and society of Rockberry, and a writer back in 1700s or some time ago.  But I think it was Hosea Ballou who came up with the analogy and it's a very fine analogy.  He said God is Like the rays of the sun and Jesus is, like I mentioned yesterday, that Jesus is the Son of God.  But not only the S-o-n, but the s-u-n of God, the brightness of the sun, you see.  So we liken God to the rays of the sun, this bright radiant warmth that gives light and heat and causes things to grow and all these wonderful things from the rays of the sun.

But ironically in the evening, when the sun goes down it gets colder and towards morning it gets damp.  There's often times dew on the grass, wet, damp and cold.  Aha, I think I have God figured out now.   When the sun is up, it's not damp, it's not wet, it's not cold, it's not dark.  When the sun goes down it's cold, damp and dark.  Therefore the sun is the cause of dampness, cold and darkness.  How do you like that?  Cause when the sun's up you don't have those things, and when the sun goes down you have them.  Therefore this darkness is caused by the sun.  No, that's wrong.  That's the way some people understand theology.  It's when the sun is gone the automatic results is, it's dark, cold and damp.  The sun didn't cause it.  It's when the sun comes up that the sun takes it away.  It's not when the sun goes down it causes it to come.  It always been there, it's the sun that takes it away, it's not the sun causes it to come and that's the way God is.

When God removes His beams of light from mankind they become cold and damp and dark.  Is that hard to understand?  It's automatically, God does not have to supernaturally make it dark on one side of the earth when the sun is on the other side.  God doesn't have to do that it's automatic, and God doesn't have to force anybody to sin, it's automatic. Yes God brings about the circumstances, "Wherefore God gave them up..."  yes He did, He's behind it.  But He did it through the lusts of their own hearts.  He didn't force anybody to do anything.

He did not have to force Hansan to torture these little children, to kill them or to rape them or whatever all he did with them.  All He had to do was let him have the opportunity and he would do it.  This man had that mentality, okay.

Rom 1:25  "who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
v. 26  For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature."

You know what?  Let me just tell you something.  Do you know why there are more homosexuals now?  I have so many homosexuals write to me and say, 'Ray you are one of the few people on this earth that doesn't understand that we're not caused, we don't choose this, we are 'born' with this. You know I will say, you know how come there were a whole lot less homosexuals back at World War II, than there are today?  What happened there, with this 'born' theory? Now don't get me wrong, there were some back in the 40's, but not many, not like today. 

SIN BEGETS SIN!  There certainly are a whole lot more lesbians, then there ever were back in the 40's or 50's.  The more people who are doing it, the easier it is for those who have any inclinations, to just jump right in there.  Everybody's doing it, it's acceptable now, and why even the government can't discriminate against you, so let's do it. See, perversion begets perversion.

Rom 1:27  Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
v. 28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind (a mind void of judgment), to do those things which are not fitting;
v. 29  being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
v. 30  backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
v. 31  undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

I mean what else can you add to this?  There's nothing else that you can add to this.  Paul knew what he was doing when he went on and on and on, he knew what he was doing.  He's talking about you, O man!

Rom 1:32  "who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things, are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
Rom 2:1 "Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

What such things?  All of this filth!  Well some might say I didn't see child molesters in there, and it didn't say how old these women and these men were.  Don't think they're not in there, there in there.

Turn to Genesis 6:5, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Wow that's a mouthful isn't it.  Let's read it again.  "And God saw that the wickedness of man (mankind, humanity) was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Wow, there's a lot of badness there, that's a lot of bad stuff.  What did Christ say.

Luke 17:26  "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it also shall be..."

You know this whole thing has so crept up on us that many of us haven't even seen it coming.  Don't even see it now.  Don't realize the extent of the perversion and evil in the world.  But it's here, it creeps up.

You know one generation fades into another and they just kinda accept what is here when they were born, right.  Our great grand parents, most of them are pretty long gone now.  But if they could see today, they would just be shocked.  And they were carnal too, but they would be shocked at today's perversion.  It's pretty bad.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ninny]

Charles..I'm glad you're back, good to know you're still out there fighting the good fight! Good encouragement from everyone!
Kathy

[LiberatedEagle]

I guess Paul means a carnal conscience of God. But is a carnal conscience of God even possible? The carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot begin to understand the things of God right? That's why I felt the scripture may be referring to the Jews because God showed himself to them and they turned the incorruptible God into a corruptible image. I know there are people who study nature and can see the evidence of God through nature, but nature doesn't reveal the hidden truths of God. i.e. No free will, judgment brings about righteousness, all things are determined according to His good pleasure. I guess it's all the same, you're either chosen or not chosen. No matter how much knowledge you have of God if He doesn't draw you to Himself and empower you with His spirit you will not retain God in your knowledge.

Thanks for all of your responses. I'm going to continue to pray and believe God will teach me what He wants me to know. I started my thread off by saying I'm back. To be honest I've really never left. I'm always dipping in and out to see what God is doing in the body. And my thirst to learn more truths haven't ceased either, I just need to be more consistent and studious. In time I know I'll get there because God will finished what He started in me..right?

Soberxp your vision of the dragon and the naked woman is very interesting. I do believe God deals with us sometimes in ways only we could understand. If that vision is from God He's going to make it plain and clear what He wanted you to understand. Thanks for your response.

Peace and Blessings,

Charles

[mharrell08]

I guess Paul means a carnal conscience of God. But is a carnal conscience of God even possible? The carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot begin to understand the things of God right? That's why I felt the scripture may be referring to the Jews because God showed himself to them and they turned the incorruptible God into a corruptible image. I know there are people who study nature and can see the evidence of God through nature, but nature doesn't reveal the hidden truths of God. i.e. No free will, judgment brings about righteousness, all things are determined according to His good pleasure. I guess it's all the same, you're either chosen or not chosen. No matter how much knowledge you have of God if He doesn't draw you to Himself and empower you with His spirit you will not retain God in your knowledge.

Hello Charles,

Paul never says anything about nature revealing 'hidden truths of God' such as judgment bringing about righteousness. Paul says that nature demonstrates God's power and divine nature. Any and everyone sees that...whether they have the wisdom to discern that is another subject. But the fact we exist points to a devine, powerful Creator.

No offense, but I think you may be over thinking things here. Read the scriptures that George posted and continue into Chapter 2 as Ray's teaching on Repentance does.

Also concerning the conversation you were having with your father: you can explain to him mankind being accountable yet God responsible from the scriptures...you can show him how God works everything after His counsel...etc. But if the Lord has not opened His eyes to the Love of God and universal salvation for all mankind, he'll never understand ANY scriptures. It doesn't matter how well you break them down and reason with him, he will not get it.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Charles

Who exactly held the truth in unrighteousness

The entire Christiandom holds the truth in unrighteousness not withstanding that quote : Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG  the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. Ref LOF Part 13 MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH ( Rev. 17 : 1-5)

Arc

[Phil3:10]

Charles,
I think Arc hit the nail right on the head. I personally feel that the entirety of Christianity is guilty of holding GOD'S truths in unrighteousness. I feel it is only those who GOD chooses to call out that can ever grasp GOD'S truths. Christiandom clings to the traditions of men and they like it that way. My constant prayer is that GOD will chose to call out many more, as he has me and many others who visit this site. However, my peace is that GOD is in total control and HIS will is best for all.
I praise HIS Holy and worthy name.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[aqrinc]

Charles,

Ditto on what Arc, Marques, Ninny, Kat, Phil3:10 & still trying to figure what Soberxp has written, Hi Deb . I see great counsel from a multitude of sources, all point in one direction. GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ, as Author And Finisher, of every good thing; that will ever come out of us.

Php 2:12-13(MKJV)
12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13  For (Because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

A different flavor of the same Scripture below.

Php 2:12 12-13 (Phillips NT)
So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.

george.

[LiberatedEagle]

Hello Marques, ARC, Phil3:1o, Aqr

I think I could have done a better job with the way I worded my question. Sometimes I write like I think and create another language in the process I didn't intend to imply that Paul stated "nature reveals the hidden truths of God" as I actually believe the opposite. I was referring to verses 18-21 when Paul states that men held the truth in unrighteousness though God was made known by creation, even his eternal power and Godhead. It seems that this group of people were held accountable because God did reveal himself to them as verse 21 states: "Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful". Was this knowledge carnal or spiritual, or both?

Ray states in his repentance transcript, posted above, in reference to verse 18 the word "Men" means humans, mankind, humankind, and could almost mean the human race. In regards to the word "they" in vs 21, Ray makes reference to the Church as it's obvious this verse implies a specific group of people and not just man in general. Verse 32 states this group of people knows the judgment of God. Understanding the judgment of God is a deeper understanding than just a knowledge of a creator via things of nature, isn't it?

What group of people are Paul referring to here? I don't believe it's the Gentiles, as my bible infers, because they didn't know God, let alone changed the incorruptible God into a corruptible image; To me the children of Israel fits all of the descriptions in verses 21 -32, with the Pharisees and Sadducees and the rest of the world, especially the church, deriving from them.  I understand the characteristics listed in verses 29-32 are the characteristics of mankind in general, but doesn't those characteristics derived from the children of Israel? Like Ray mentions in the repentance transcript "sin begets sin".

God showed Himself to the children of Israel first and though they knew God they didn't retain Him in their knowledge. However, the children of Israel were only an example for us that we can't overcome sin without that "heart of flesh" God mentions in Ezekiel 36:26 no matter how much we know of God.

I may be over thinking it.  Albeit, I know my dad and most people believe this scripture is referring to mankind in general and not a specific group of people. Thus they used this passage as proof that man has a free will and they choose not to accept God after He has revealed Himself to them which is why they believe many will perish.

Hopefully I explained myself a little better this time. If it's irrelevant as to who Paul is referring to in this passage, whether Jew, Greek or mankind and it's all the same then I'm over thinking it.  

Thanks Marques, Arc, and Phil3:1o and everyone else for taking the time to respond

Peace and Blessings,

Charles

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi there George.

LiberatedEagle

Let Job's testimony speak to you for the Truth that you seek.

Job 42: 1 Then Job replied to the Lord: 2"I know that you can do all things: no plan of Yours can be thwarted.3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures My Counsel without knowledge.' Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know .5 My ears had heard OF YOU but now my eyes have SEEN YOU, 6Therefore I DESPISE MYSELF and REPENT in dust and ashes.

Humanity is the 666 anti-Christ.  The group you are discerning is the many who are called, which is all of humanity, by contrast with the few that are chosen who are those God Elects by His Spirit to receive His Spirit and converting repentance.
So who is it, which group is it that is accountable for turning away from the Lord. EVERYONE! ALL have fallen short.

Arc

PS EVERYONE is accountable. Only God is Responsible.

[mharrell08]

Hello Marques, ARC, Phil3:1o, Aqr

I think I could have done a better job with the way I worded my question. Sometimes I write like I think and create another language in the process I didn't intend to imply that Paul stated "nature reveals the hidden truths of God" as I actually believe the opposite. I was referring to verses 18-21 when Paul states that men held the truth in unrighteousness though God was made known by creation, even his eternal power and Godhead. It seems that this group of people were held accountable because God did reveal himself to them as verse 21 states: "Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful". Was this knowledge carnal or spiritual, or both?

Rom 1:18-23  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Paul states that the wrath of God is revealed against ALL ungodliness & unrighteousness of men...anything & everything ungodly in everyone, not just Jews. Paul then states that God's invisible attributes are clearly seen through His creation. But 'o man' then worshipped what they COULD SEE (corruptible man, birds, beasts, etc.)...this is everyone.

Ray states in his repentance transcript, posted above, in reference to verse 18 the word "Men" means humans, mankind, humankind, and could almost mean the human race. In regards to the word "they" in vs 21, Ray makes reference to the Church as it's obvious this verse implies a specific group of people and not just man in general. Verse 32 states this group of people knows the judgment of God. Understanding the judgment of God is a deeper understanding than just a knowledge of a creator via things of nature, isn't it?

Charles, this is why I told you to continue reading into Chapter 2. This is the backbone of Ray's teaching on Repentance.

Rom 2:1-3  Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

These are Gentile Romans that Paul is talking to about how they JUDGE. Paul is not talking about the righteous judgment of God in Rom 1:32 leading into Romans 2. He's saying that those that condemn others DO THE SAME THINGS (in heart & mind if not also in deed). This is EVERYONE...everyone is 'O Man'.

What group of people are Paul referring to here? I don't believe it's the Gentiles, as my bible infers, because they didn't know God, let alone changed the incorruptible God into a corruptible image; To me the children of Israel fits all of the descriptions in verses 21 -32, with the Pharisees and Sadducees and the rest of the world, especially the church, deriving from them.  I understand the characteristics listed in verses 29-32 are the characteristics of mankind in general, but doesn't those characteristics derived from the children of Israel? Like Ray mentions in the repentance transcript "sin begets sin".

Again, they know God from what is seen (an all mighty & powerful creator)...but then they choose to worship what IS SEEN.

v25  Who changed the truth of God (the truth Paul references in v20) into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

All have done this, not just Jews and not just Gentiles.

God showed Himself to the children of Israel first and though they knew God they didn't retain Him in their knowledge. However, the children of Israel were only an example for us that we can't overcome sin without that "heart of flesh" God mentions in Ezekiel 36:26 no matter how much we know of God.

Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge.

I may be over thinking it.  Albeit, I know my dad and most people believe this scripture is referring to mankind in general and not a specific group of people. Thus they used this passage as proof that man has a free will and they choose not to accept God after He has revealed Himself to them which is why they believe many will perish.

These scriptures have nothing to do with accepting God and walking in His statutes..they are simply about acknowledging our all mighty Creator. One cannot come to God unless He draws them, and looking around at nature will not overcome the Beast within.

Those who are spiritually blind will hold fast to any scripture that believes takes away the sovereignty of God. Like I said, you can explain this scripture very in depth, but if he believes in the myth of free will, it doesn't matter what you show him. The Lord must take that veil away from his heart.

Hopefully I explained myself a little better this time. If it's irrelevant as to who Paul is referring to in this passage, whether Jew, Greek or mankind and it's all the same then I'm over thinking it.  

It's just about paying attention to all the words. No where does your father read that people 'freely choose' God in this scripture or any other. But in his mind and heart, he sees them everywhere in the scriptures. It truly takes a miracle to be that spiritually blind and it takes ANOTHER miracle to be given eyes to see. Remember like the Lord says, 'He who has an ear to hear, let him hear'.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[LiberatedEagle]

I did continue to read the other Chapters before my last post. I just didn't want to go on and on. It seems that Paul starts talking about a specific group as a back drop then addresses the gentiles and mankind later on. My train of thought is the Jews were the first to blaspheme God. However, I do understand there are none righteous and all have fallen short of the glory and that's what's most important, everyone is gone out of the way.

My intentions were not to gain ammunition to argue with my dad as I almost never get a word in with him. When he does allow me to talk I ask questions and use analogies to explain my understanding of free will. He's been a preacher for years, practically all of my life, so I know it's going to take the power of God to show him the true gospel. I listen to the scriptures they used to defend their understanding and I search them out to see whether I fully understand.

Thank you all for spending time with little ole' me as I know it takes patience to deal with me


Peace and Blessings,


Charles

[indianabob]

Charles,

Very good and interesting question.  I now have a study goal.

Marques,
Reference your finalizing statement: "Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge."

Here is where I think we need careful definition.  Many deny the idea of universal salvation at some point in time, because they say everyone knows what God expects and we have our one and only opportunity in this life, however short. They then excuse [innocent] children by stating that God gives them life of the age to come without test or judgment such as experienced by all others.

 I on the other hand limit the accountability to those who have the capacity to know.  So, I would excuse little children below a certain age and people who have no language skills and have no way of communicating what they observe etc.  Until they are resurrected in the "judgment".

Have you any additional advice for what I mention above?  Is your statement still applying to "everyone"?

Thanks for explaining,  Bob

[mharrell08]

Charles,

Very good and interesting question.  I now have a study goal.

Marques,
Reference your finalizing statement: "Paul isn't talking about overcoming sin in verses 18-21...only that a knowledge of an all powerful Creator exists simply from the fact that the entire world exists...everyone has that conscience knowledge."

Here is where I think we need careful definition.  Many deny the idea of universal salvation at some point in time, because they say everyone knows what God expects and we have our one and only opportunity in this life, however short. They then excuse [innocent] children by stating that God gives them life of the age to come without test or judgment such as experienced by all others.

 I on the other hand limit the accountability to those who have the capacity to know.  So, I would excuse little children below a certain age and people who have no language skills and have no way of communicating what they observe etc.  Until they are resurrected in the "judgment".

Have you any additional advice for what I mention above?  Is your statement still applying to "everyone"?

Thanks for explaining,  Bob

Hey IndianaBob,

The 'conscience knowledge' that I believe Paul is referring to is the fact that we have a Creator, not that everyone has a knowledge of universal salvation. Notice what Paul states:

Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

God's might, power, sovereignty, etc. are displayed by His creation which is clearly seen. Paul then says 'they' are without excuse...in the passage above, Paul informs us of the 'they' he is speaking of:

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Like I posted before, this 'truth' being held in unrighteousness is not universal salvation or overcoming one's sins...it is a conscience knowledge of an all powerful Creator, with our very existence testifying to that fact. And here, Paul tells us 'how' they corrupt this knowledge:

Rom 1:21-22  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Again, this 'knowing' of God is not His Will and Holy Promises, it is the fact that a wise, powerful Creator gave us life and created ALL that we SEE. But we (all mankind) were not thankful and claimed to be wise but are foolish [For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God...1 Cor 3:19]

v23-24  And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

We (all mankind, Jews & Gentiles) changed the glory that is SEEN in God's creation into an image of corruption. Either through the corruption of His laws & statutes that the Jews had been given or the Gentiles worshipping false idols. These lusts were in our own hearts & minds.

v25  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Here Paul puts the nail in the coffin: We worshipped the creature/creation (corrupt man, birds, beasts, sun, moon, etc.) rather than the Creator. Everyone has done this because it is human nature/carnality.

Without the spirit of God opening our eyes to things of the spirit, why would anyone worship something they can't see? The question seems absurd now, but that's how the carnal mind thinks and that how it looks to fulfill it's own lusts. The carnal mind will NOT worship what it cannot SEE [the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned...1 Cor 2:14]


Hope this helps,

Marques