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Author Topic: Writings of Paul and Peter?  (Read 3282 times)

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Lupac

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Writings of Paul and Peter?
« on: December 07, 2009, 11:27:04 AM »

(I hope this isn't against the rules. If it is, I'm sorry, please remove this topic.)

Hi. I was wondering about something. It seems that some people think that 1 Timothy, and a few other of Paul's epistles weren't written by Paul. They use examples like, Colossians combating an early form on Gnosticism, or 1 Timothy saying the, things it says about women in the church when Paul said in Galatians that there is not male or female in Christ. Also, lots of people say that nether 1 nor 2 Peter was actually written by Peter.

I'm only asking this because 1 Timothy, to me, is the most "pro universal salvation" book in the whole Bible. (But I guess if I can't trust it, how can I trust anything in the Bible?)

So, my question is, is there support I'm not seeing that Paul and Peter really wrote those books? (Also, 1 Corinthians 15:22 is just as strong, I guess. But what does being "made alive" mean? I just need some faith, but back to my question. Thanks.)
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 12:05:20 PM by Lupac »
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mharrell08

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 12:08:04 PM »

So, my question is, is there support I'm not seeing that Paul and Peter really wrote those books? (Also, 1 Corinthians 15:22 is just as strong, I guess. I just need some faith, but back to my question. Thanks.)


Hello Lupac,

Peter and Paul epistles agree with the rest of the Holy Scriptures, that should be proof enough. But the faith is not for everyone and when these people have doubts it is because God is not calling them.

James 1:8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

John 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.



Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 04:20:25 PM »


Hi Lupac,
Here is an excerpt from HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE transcript Bible Study by Ray Smith

II Peter was written to show the apostasy that had set in and would grow worse.  That the WORDS OF THE PROPHETS AND THE WORDS OF THE APOSTLES must be heeded and preserved.

II Peter 3:2  that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior,

But Peter says, Paul writes to you, isn’t that what he says in II Peter 3:15?
But I thought Peter was suppose to go to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles.  Now it says in Gal. 2, that I (Paul) was to the uncircumcised and Peter to the circumcised.

Gal 2:7  …when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter.

But look at this.

II Peter 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for these things, give diligence that ye may be found in peace, without spot and blameless in his sight.
v. 15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote unto you;

Who did Paul write all his epistles to?  The Gentiles.  Paul is now in prison in Roman and Peter is writing to the Gentiles.  What is going on here?  Apparently Paul wanted him to, because Paul can’t get these letters out being in Roman, like he use to.

II Peter 3:16  as also in ALL his epistles, speaking in them of these things;

What did Peter know about “all his (Paul’s) epistles”?  Because Peter had them.  He had them all.  How did he get them?

II Tim. 4:11  Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with you; for he is useful to me for ministering.
v. 12  But Tychicus I sent to Ephesus.
v. 13  The cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus, bring when thou come, and the books, ESPECIALLY THE PARCHMENTS.

These are Paul’s letters.  These are not the books, but the vellums, these are his epistles.  Why would he want all his epistles?  Didn’t he know what he said?  Well he knows his time is near the end and Paul knows what he has written is Scripture.  We read many Scripture showing that he knew that he was writing ‘Bible verses’ if you will. 
Now Paul wants Mark to come and bring those letters, because he’s going to go through them.  In fact he’s going to edit some of them.

Eph 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus,

It doesn’t just say to the saints of God, but “that are in Ephesus,”  That was editorialized, because his first letters apparently do not contain that.  But then he edited it, so that they would know where this letter went. 
Of course Ephesus was really the head quarters for the Asian church. 
Remember there are 7 churches on a mail route; Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.  But the head church was always in Ephesus. 

So he says, bring the parchments ‘especially’ I want those, these were Paul’s epistles.  Now Mark returned to Peter in Babylon.  Remember Peter wrote from Babylon.

 II Peter 5:13  The church is in Babylon, elect together with you, greets you; and so does Mark my son.

So Paul said sent Mark and be sure to bring the vellums and he must have brought them.  Paul then edits them and says these are the ones.  He started with the most important one of all for basic information, the book of Romans.  It sets the doctrinal standards, but it’s mostly milk as far as doctrine goes.  This leads up to his last epistles written from prison, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians.  These are the most spiritually strong Scripture in the whole bible. 

Now Mark is back in Babylon with Peter and then when we go to II Peter, guess what?  Peter has all of Paul’s epistles.  There was a reason why Mark got them and took them to Paul.  Then Paul sent them with Mark and he gave them to Peter.  Now Peter has got them all, at least all the ones that Paul wanted to be sent to him.  So Peter is definitely in charge of the Scriptures and here he talks about his epistles and the OTHER Scriptures.  So he knows what the other Scriptures are. 

So obviously the Apostles had all the Scriptures.  They had the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the writings, they had it all.  It (Old Testament) was in the synagogues and the Temple until 70 AD, but they also had them. 

General epistles James, Peter, John and Jude should come before Paul's epistles.  They were first to teach, first in authority (Acts 15) and first in teaching the milk of God's Word, followed by Paul's strong meat of God's Word.

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Lupac

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2009, 01:01:32 AM »

Thank you. Where can I find the "HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE" bible study? Also, is being "made alive" in 1 Cor. 15:22 the same as being saved? Thanks. (I guess since sin=death it does, but I have lots of, I don't want to say doubts, maybe worries?)
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2009, 02:05:38 AM »

Click on Introductions, Announcements and more of Ray's Teachings and then click on Transcripts of Ray's Audio's and More Teachings
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

Quote
Also, is being "made alive" in 1 Cor. 15:22 the same as being saved?

You will find deeper meaning to this question at http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html

Sample excerpt quote :
….in Acts 6:31, it says “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.”

Well which is it? CALL upon the name of the Lord, or BELIEVE in Jesus Christ….and then you’ll be saved.

Well then in Mark 16:16, it says, “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved.”

Well, now we are getting down to it…(counts off on his fingers): You call upon the name of the Lord, you believe on the name of the Lord, you’re baptized and then…..?? You’ll be saved, right?  Well, that is if there were no more scriptures.

But then we have a scripture in John 10:9 that says, “I am the door, by Me if any man enter he shall be saved.”  Well what if you don’t enter by the door? If Christ is the door and you have to enter in at the door to be saved, if you don’t enter in at the door can you be saved? Well, I wouldn’t think so.

And then we have in Ephesians 2:8, “For by grace, are you saved, through faith”

Now let me see if I’ve got this straight:
1. believe on the name of the Lord
2. call on the name of the Lord
3. be baptized
4. enter in at the door of Christ
5. and then by grace
6. through faith

…….and then I will be saved. Right? Wrong Paleface, because there’s more!

Arc
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Kat

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2009, 02:17:26 AM »


Hi Lupac,

also you might be interested in the audios of 'How We Got The Bible' at the bottom of the page on this link.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Quote
Also, is being "made alive" in 1 Cor. 15:22 the same as being saved?

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Yes to be "made alive" will be our salvation, but it is a process.  When you are chosen and drawn/dragged to Christ (John 6:44) you receive the earnest of His spirit.  This is so that He can work in you and prepare you for His return, so as to reign with Him.  Ray speaks of this in the email below.
 
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2619.0.html ---

The Spirit of Christ is eternal, and when we have the Spirit of Christ we have eternal life in us. But....BUT,
we have only the "earnest" of that spirit, and it will not keep our physical bodies from dying. But when we have the earnest of God's spirit, it is proof that there is more to come:  "In Whom you also trusted after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after that you believed, you were SEALED WITH THAT HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE.  Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL [not now; not yet, but later] the redemption of the purchased POSSESSION, unto the praise of His glory" (Eph. 1:13-14).
 
And that takes place at the resurrection of the saints at the last trump. One more point: although we are promised "eonian" life, nonethless, the spirit that gives us "immortality," IS ETERNAL.
--------------------------------------------------------------

The earnest is the begettal you receive now, when your eyes are opened to the truth.  You do not receive the full measure of His spirit until you are actual born into the kingdom at His return, then you become spirit as He is now spirit.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;

But it is a process that is worked out during this life to start with, Paul likened it to a race.

Heb 12:1  Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
v. 9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Hope this helped.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 11:02:21 AM by Kat »
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Lupac

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2009, 11:38:53 AM »

I still worry about this sometimes. Like with the verses about all will be saved, I think, what if God doesn't want to save everybody, or something. I know, it takes faith.

James 1:8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

That rings very true for me. I try not to be double minded, but I'm sacred. Is there any proof ether way that Paul wrote First Timothy?
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Kat

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2009, 11:57:13 AM »


Hi Lupac,

I have another good Bible study 'DOES ALL MEAN ALL?' (DOES SCRIPTURE PROVE GOD WILL SAVE EVERYONE ?) This whole transcript gives much explanation as to 'all' being saved.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5605.msg45176.html#msg45176 -------

1Cor 15:28  And when all things have been subjected unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subjected to Him that did subject all things unto Him, that God may BE all.....IN all.

Who would think that this proves that Christ Himself would be subject unto the Father, “that God may be all in all.”  How does that prove all human are going to be saved.  We have the same word ‘all’ that's the word ‘pas.’  Here’s why, you can’t say that the first ‘all’ means absolutely all, but the next ‘all,’ these right together, means something totally different, you can’t do that.  God does not speak in such convoluted deceitful ways in His word, if you say the second ‘all,’ that’s all humanity doesn’t mean all.  Then you have to also conclude that when God says, “that He may be all,” that God Himself is not all.  Who would suggest that God is not all, that He is lacking, He’s not all that He wants to be or whatever, only partly.  It’s nonsense.  Well whatever the all is, meaning that God is complete and that’s what it’s talking about, completeness, being made whole.  Like it says in Colossians, “we are made perfect in Christ” complete, we are complete in Him, mature, whole.  Whatever God is, is what He will be in.  That God may be all, that’s what He is, that’s not us now, God will be all.  Well if God is all and He is all, being all, be all, it’s the same thing He’s going to be in us.  It can’t be just in part, you can’t say God will be all in part of humanity, you can’t say that.  So even a simple verse like that, “God… all in all” absolutely proves all humanity is included.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hope that helped.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2009, 01:00:18 PM »

Hi Lupac

You sure are keeping us all on our toes here in a good way! :)

Quote
Is there any proof ether way that Paul wrote First Timothy?

It is God’s Word that Paul wrote 1 Tim.

Here is all the proof you need!

1Ti 1:1  From Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and Christ Jesus our hope,
1Ti 1:2  to Timothy, my genuine child in the faith. May grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord be yours….


Arc
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mharrell08

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2009, 01:23:41 PM »

I still worry about this sometimes. Like with the verses about all will be saved, I think, what if God doesn't want to save everybody, or something. I know, it takes faith.

James 1:8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways

That rings very true for me. I try not to be double minded, but I'm sacred. Is there any proof ether way that Paul wrote First Timothy?


Bryant,

If any of us had 'proof' of anything, we wouldn't need faith. Here is faith:

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.


Here is hope:

Rom 8:24-25  For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

Here is spirit ('things not seen'):

John 4:24  God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth

John 3:8  The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit

1 Tim 1:17  Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.


Here is the plain, simple reason why God sent the prophets, apostles, disciples, etc. to spread the gospel:

John 5:9-15  If we are obtaining the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater; for this is the testimony of God, that He has testified concerning His Son. He who is believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; he who is not believing God has made Him a liar, for he has not believed in the testimony which God has testified concerning His Son. And this is the testimony, that God gives us life eonian, and this life is in His Son.

He who has the Son has the life; he who has not the Son of God has not the life. These things I write to you that you who are believing in the name of the son of God may be perceiving that you have life eonian. And this is the boldness which we have toward Him, that if we should be requesting anything according to His will, He is hearing us. And if ever we are aware that He is hearing us, whatever we may be requesting, we are aware that we have the requests which we have requested from Him.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2009, 04:49:22 PM »

A little more about “Proof”

2Co 2:9  For to  this end  also  did I write,  that  I might know  the  PROOFG1382 of you, whether ye  be  obedient  in  all things.
2Co 8:24  Wherefore shew  ye  to them, and before the churches, the PROOF G1732 of your love, and of our boasting on your behalf.
2Co 13:3  Since ye seek a PROOF G1382 of Christ  speaking  in  me,  which  to  you-ward  is not weak,  but  is  mighty in  you.
Php 2:22  But  ye know  the  PROOF G1382 of him,  that,  as  a son  with the father,  he hath served with me  in  the  gospel.
2Ti 4:5  But watch  thou  in  all things,  endure afflictions,  do  the work of an evangelist, make full PROOFG4135 of thy  ministry.

G1382  From the same as G1384; test (abstractly or concretely); by implication trustiness: - experience (-riment), proof, trial.
G1384 From G1380; properly acceptable (current after assayal), that is, approved: - approved, tried.
G1380 A prolonged form of a primary verb δόκω dokō (used only as an alternate in certain tenses; compare the base of G1166); of the same meaning; to think; by implication to seem (truthfully or uncertainly): - be accounted, (of own) please (-ure), be of reputation, seem (good), suppose, think, trow.
G1116 A prolonged form of an obsolete primary of the same meaning; to show (literally or figuratively): - shew.
Rom 5:4  And  patience,  experience G1382; and  experience, G1382 hope:
 2Co 2:9  For  to  this end  also  did I write,  that  I might know  the  proof G1382of you, whether  ye be obedient  in all things.
2Co 8:2  How that  in  a great  trial G1382of affliction  the  abundance of their  joy and  their deep poverty abounded unto the  riches  of their  liberality.
2Co 13:3  Since ye seek a PROOF G1382 of Christ  speaking  in  me,  which  to  you-ward  is not weak,  but  is  mighty in  you.
2Co 9:13  Whiles by  the  experiment G1382 of this  ministration  they glorify  God  for your professed  subjection  unto  the  gospel of Christ,  and  for your liberal  distribution  unto them,  and  unto  all  men;
Php 2:22  But  ye know  the  PROOF G1382 of him,  that,  as  a son  with the father,  he hath served with me  in  the  gospel.

Gg1732  From G1731; indication (abstractly): - declare, evident token, proof.

Arc
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cjwood

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2009, 01:47:17 AM »



If any of us had 'proof' of anything, we wouldn't need faith. Here is faith:

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.




marques,
hands down, that has got to be the simplest best statement written thus far.  8)


thanks mate,
claudia
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gmik

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Re: Writings of Paul and Peter?
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 01:56:31 PM »

thanks to all those who "prepared" this thread for us.  it is a great Bible study.

  A tip to the newbies......I don't like to "study" at the computer, so I print out these links or threads and study them on my comfy couch! You can't just read this material and move on (IMO).  Ray's work needs studied.  I used to think it was so I could present it to others!! ha   No I study for myself, to keep the beast down.

Tonite, PBS is having a special on Peter and Paul.  May have some good historical points.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 01:57:45 PM by gmik »
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