Is water baptism necessary

[mharrell08]

Hello  Kat.

   Thanks for the e-mails about baptism by Ray.

After reading them, I am still confused.   I don't want to argue, and I WON'T,
And I don't give a hoot what other people believe,  I am just trying to understand Gods' Word.

   Do you have any idea why, Jesus Christ got baptized when He had no sins?
and why did Peter COMMAND Cornelius and his household to be baptized with water after
they had already received the Holy Spirit?

   Yes, baptism is a symbol,  So is the American flag, and I am proud to let people know I am an American.
But you don't have to be an American to fly the American flag. It's not wrong to fly the American flag.

   Dave in Tenn.
      It looked liked Peter thought it WAS necessary to baptize those who were already spirit-baptized.
I'm sticking to  I don't know the answer.
           Be Happy,    EJW

Hello EJW,

Could you state for myself and the other members exactly what you believe concerning water baptism? Do you believe it necessary? Do you believe it as something that is not harmful if one fulfills it's spiritual reality? I think if you could clear up your statements a little, it would avoid any arguments. No offense intended


Marques

[Linny]

I was reading today and came across this email by Ray...
Dear Almon:

Is it the fact that you find a Scripture stating something in the Word of God that you conclude that we should "do it?"

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to keep the Lord's supper. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to be circumcised or be baptized. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to sacrifice animals or offer sin offerings, burnt offerings, peace offerings and the like.

Gen. 6:14 commands:  "Make THEE an ark of gopher wood...." I have nothing against anyone who wants to follow this command and "Make an  ark of gopher wood."

There are hundreds of things commanded in the Scriptures. I have nothing against anyone who wishes to do ALL OF THEM. I don't. I never made an ark of gopher wood, and never intend to. 

Any just why don "I" do any of these things? Well, actually I used to do some of them. I used to pay my THREE tithes (oh you didn't know that there were THREE tithes?). I was water baptized. I used to wash my brothers feet, and I used to partake of the Lord's supper once a year. And now I don't. Why not? Because there is absolutely nothing physical that can make one spiritual.

Paul baptized at one time in his ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

Paul used to circumcise in his early ministry and then he quit. Why? Because he put away childish things and went on to spiritual maturity.

All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances. We are now under the "Law of the Spirit of Life." "We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."

Although it was mighty important in Christ's time to worship in THIS mountain or in THAT mountain, Jesus Himself said that the time would come (and so it has) that we no longer worship here or there or in this manner or in that manner, with this set of physical rituals, or with that set of physical rituals, but rather WE WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH.

We are to WORSHIP IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH! Now then, does anyone think that we can add to those instructions by adding a few physical, carnal, rituals? I think not.

I hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,

Ray

[Samson]

Very Good Linda,

You hit the nail on the head, so to speak with your Post of Ray's Email, None of these Physical Acts are wrong, but are they necessary to have God's approval and will they make you Spiritual. They certainly won't aid you in manifesting the Fruitage of God's Spirit(Galatians.5:22,23). I copied and pasted part of your Email quote of Ray's below for emphasis.

All physical rituals are CARNAL ordinances, and we are no longer under carnal ordinances. We are now under the "Law of the Spirit of Life." "We know longer know Jesus after the FLESH." Jesus HIMSELF said: "The flesh profits NOTHING." "The words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT and they are LIFE."


                                     Kind Regards, Samson.

[Kat]

Hi EJW,

Do you have any idea why, Jesus Christ got baptized when He had no sins?

Mat 3:13  Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.
v. 14  And John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"
v. 15  But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him.

Physically speaking (you have been given plenty of good spiritual info), Jesus was simply fulfilling the requirements to enter into the Melchizedek priesthood so He could be our High Priest.

Heb 5:10  being designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek. 

Jesus said "to fulfill all righteousness," as a Jew He was following the Old Testament law.

Rom 10:5  For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law,

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Exo 29:1 And this is what you shall do to them to hallow them for ministering to Me as priests: Take one young bull and two rams without blemish,
v. 2  and unleavened bread, unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil (you shall make them of wheat flour).
v. 3  You shall put them in one basket and bring them in the basket, with the bull and the two rams.
v. 4  "And Aaron and his sons you shall bring to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and you shall wash them with water. (also Ex. 29:4)

Jesus was baptized because He had to fulfill the legal requirements for entering into the priesthood. He was priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Psa 110:4  The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind, "You are a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Heb 6:20  where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Priests in the Old testament offered sacrifice to God on behalf of the people. Jesus became a sacrifice/sin offering Himself for our sin in His role as priest.

2Co 5:21 For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him. (CLV)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[E. Woods]

Hello  Kat.

  Thanks for the e-mails about baptism by Ray.

After reading them, I am still confused.   I don't want to argue, and I WON'T,
And I don't give a hoot what other people believe,  I am just trying to understand Gods' Word.

  Do you have any idea why, Jesus Christ got baptized when He had no sins?
and why did Peter COMMAND Cornelius and his household to be baptized with water after
they had already received the Holy Spirit?

  Yes, baptism is a symbol,  So is the American flag, and I am proud to let people know I am an American.
But you don't have to be an American to fly the American flag. It's not wrong to fly the American flag.

  Dave in Tenn.
     It looked liked Peter thought it WAS necessary to baptize those who were already spirit-baptized.
I'm sticking to  I don't know the answer.
          Be Happy,    EJW

Hello EJW,

Could you state for myself and the other members exactly what you believe concerning water baptism? Do you believe it necessary? Do you believe it as something that is not harmful if one fulfills it's spiritual reality? I think if you could clear up your statements a little, it would avoid any arguments. No offense intended

Marques

      Hello Marques
  Thank You for your reply.

  I enjoy hearing from people as to what they believe, and what they think about certian things.

  You did not offend me in the least, so don't worry about that.

  I will be glad to explain what I believe, and try to clear up any doubts you have about what I believe.
But will not argure, and it is NOT my purpose to start one.

  I think people should be able to state their opinion, or get opinions from others, without trying to force
their beliefs on others,  whether here on the fourm, or any other place.  when you start doing that
you are dangerously close to becoming a  cult.

  Now to explain what I believe

  If Jesus Christ got baptized, What is wrong with it?

  Acts 2:37-41, The men and borthren gathered in Jerusalem to keep the Day of Pentecost asked Peter
and the rest of the apostles " what shall we do " what did Peter say?  "Repent and be baptized in the name of
Jesus Christ "  and those who gladly received Peter's words were BAPTIZED.

  And AFTER the Holy Spirit fell upon Cornelius and his household, Peter COMMANDED them to be BAPTIZED
in the name of the Lord.  Acts 10;48

  NOW BY THE SCRIPTURES, it looks like baptism was commanded, or at least practiced even after
people received the Holy Spirit.  And Paul   Acts 16:12-15, was in the city of Philipi and on the Sabath
day and he went outside the city where prayer was customarily made,  and the Lord  open the heart
of a woman named Lydia to heed the things spoken by Paul, her and her household were baptized.
  And Paul told the keeper of the prison when he ask Paul "What must I do to be saved."  Paul said
believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. but they didn't stop there.
they got baptized.  Acts 16:31-33.

  Now do I believe baptism should be done?  YES when ever possible.
  What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, and I don't think Christ told him to go
get baptized or you can't come with me to Paradise.  So therefore under certian circumstances,
it must not be necessary.

Marques, I hope this clears up my statement for you. If not let me know.

  Be Happy.    EJW

[mharrell08]

  Now do I believe baptism should be done?  YES when ever possible.
  What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, and I don't think Christ told him to go
get baptized or you can't come with me to Paradise.  So therefore under certian circumstances,
it must not be necessary.

Marques, I hope this clears up my statement for you. If not let me know.

  Be Happy.    EJW

One question EJW, who decides the certain circumstances of baptism being necessary? And how is this decision made?


Marques

[Samson]

Hi,

    Below is an excerpt from 11-20-09 General Discussions made to Gallenwash, on another subject, but adds insight to those having difficulty with this Water Baptism issue. Personally, I've seen and know of many people that received Water Baptism in Symbol of Repentance and years later they act the same or are worse than ever, but anyway, below is the excerpt from Kat's Post referred to, in blue found below. I thought it was pretty thorough, it definitely satisfied me.

IN CHRIST  - IN SPIRIT

Col 2:10  And you are complete in Christ, who is the Head of all principality and power,

This is talking to the Colossians here, these are Gentiles, these are people who are trying to be the kingdom of the heavens.

Col 2:11  in whom also ye (all of you) are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (no more physical rituals, talking about the real stuff now, in your heart - in your mind - in your soul - in your spirit), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ,

People will say, 'so Ray you are saying that we don't need to be baptized anymore?'  Oh I never said that.  I never said we don't have to be baptized anymore.  We have to be baptized, we have to be circumcised, we have to partake in the foot washing, we have to keep the Sabbath, we have to partake of the bread and the wine...  IN SPIRIT.  

If you don't do it in spirit, then forget it.  When you go down dry, you'll come up wet.  You will loose some skin and some blood and that's all.  You'll eat a little piece of wafer and you'll drink a little grape juice and that's all.  This is the real thing,  SPIRITUALLY.

Spiritually you must be circumcised, you must have the foreskin of your heart, that flesh cut off.  You must be baptized with Christ, that means you have to die.  That's not too popular, that you have to die to the flesh.  The flesh doesn't want to die.  The flesh says, here I am look at me, don't let me die, pay attention to me, puff me up, make me great, make me important, it's flesh flesh flesh.  

We have to be crucified with Christ.

Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

But this next verse is "buried with Him in baptism."

Col 2:12  buried with Him in baptism...

It doesn't say buried in water.  Where do you see buried in water there?  I don't see buried in water, I see buried with Him in baptism.

Col 2:12 ...in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

I don't see anything about water there.  You say, 'well that's what it's all about isn't it?'  Paul said in the first chapter of Corinthians, Christ has not called me to baptize.

1Cor 1:17  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,

He said that's not my calling, He called me to preach the gospel.  This is the gospel.  Being baptized in Christ is the gospel and persecuted with Christ, and hated of all nations.

Mat 24:9  Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4472.0 ---------------

But there is only one body, one spirit.  Even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism.  There's only one baptism that counts, that's Christ's baptism.  Now if your not baptized into Christ, your water baptism is of no value whatsoever.  But people want to do the physical, keeping the physical.  They think well I have to keep the baptism and circumcision, and every year we have to wash one another's feet, and we take the Passover or communion, sometimes it's six times a year, sometimes it's twice a day, whatever.  

Paul says they love the letter, their little communion thing and their little wafer (such a cute little thing) and they take their communion cup and say bless you, bless you, bless you and send me money, money, money.  You have to have an anointing cloth and the hands laid on you and rubbed with oil... You got to pay your tithe and keep the Holy Days... You can't wear mixed fabrics... The clean and unclean foods... You have to keep the Sabbath... You can't work from sunset to sunset... and it just goes on and on and on.  You do all these things and you will be a holy person, it will just make your heart so wonderful.  But what it does is it makes hypocrites and heretics out of people.

It's only ONE baptism and that's Jesus Christ.  We are baptized into His death.  You say I thought we were suppose to be baptized in water?  No.  We are baptized into His death, that's the thing that counts.  It is only one baptism, there is only one circumcision, you either get that one or you have none at all.

Col 2:10-11  "And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power, in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands..."

No skin, no hands, no knife, that's circumcision, okay.  Continuing verse 11 "... putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ."  
That is what it represents, "the flesh by the circumcision of CHRIST!"  That is the only way it counts.  

Col 2:12  "buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead."

Then you say, 'alright Ray there it is, we have to be baptized, can't you read it in context?'  The circumcision is without hands, the baptism is without water.  This is Christ's circumcision, Christ's baptism, Christ is the anointing, it's Christ, Christ, Christ, all of it.

If you don't see that, you are just spinning your wheels in physical rituals.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

                            Kind Regards, Samson.



 

[Marky Mark]

How does anything physical make one spiritual? I feel Kats reply was spot on and to think other wise would be of a carnal nature in and of itself. If the ritual of a physical baptism was of a great importance in ones salvation, you would then have to ask yourself, why did not Christ baptize people in water? He certainly healed a lot of people and saved them from their ailments but baptism by water did not seem to be of any major importance in the healing's that took place throughout Jesus's ministry.

I think if someone wants to partake in water baptism then I would say go ahead,but it certainly is not something that would be needed to be Spiritually converted.This can only come from God and not by any worldly condition of the heart concerning things of the flesh and the shadows of Spiritual reality's.

ISV
Mat 3:11  I am baptizing you with water as a token of repentance, but the one who is coming after me is stronger than I am, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. It is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Luk 12:49-50  "I have come to bring fire on earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and what stress I am under until it is completed!

Mar 10:38-39  But Jesus told them, "You don't realize what you're asking. Can you drink from the cup that I'm going to drink from or be baptized with the baptism with which I'm going to be baptized?"
  They told him, "We can." Jesus said to them, "You will drink from the cup that I'm going to drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I'm going to be baptized.



Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Thanks Samson, that's all from Ray that you posted.  Here a link to the thread
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10882.0.html


Hi EJW,

What I posted about Jesus Christ's baptism is that He was doing what was required under the law.  He was a Jew and was still practicing the Old Testament laws of Moses at that time. He was doing what the Old covenant required, which was for a priest to be washed/baptized before entering the priesthood.  He was 'physically' following the letter.  

Luke 24:44  Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."

Now granted earlier on after Christ's death the Apostles were baptizing, because it was there custom.  But you will notice that later in the chapter at the council in at Jerusalem, they decided by consensus what was required of new believers and what they should do.

Acts 15:5  But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
v. 6  Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
v. 10  Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

That "yoke" they were referring to was the law of Moses.  In verse 24 these Gentile believers were being "troubled" by some to "keep the law."

Act 15:23  And they wrote these things by their hand: The apostles and elders and brothers send greeting to the brothers, from the nations in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.  
v. 24  Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--

Jewish law 'before' Christ required immersion/baptism for new converts.

[ Jewish law guidelines for accepting new converts to Judaism are called "giyur." Potential converts should desire conversion to Judaism for its own sake, and for no other motives. A male convert needs to undergo a ritual circumcision conducted according to Jewish law (if already circumcised, a needle is used to draw a symbolic drop of blood while the appropriate blessings are said), and there has to be a commitment to observe the 613 mitzvot and Jewish law. A convert must join the Jewish community, and reject the previous theology he or she had prior to the conversion. Ritual immersion in a small pool of water known as a mikvah is required. from Wikipedia, Religious conversion]

So this council of the Apostles, the elders and believers determined what the new converted believers were required to do and sent a letter telling what that was.

Act 15:29  that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.  Farewell.

There you have what they were to do, no mention of circumcision or baptism, because conversion is not about the physical things you do, but the spiritual change in your heart.  

We are to be baptized into Jesus Christ's NAME (Acts 2:28) and baptized into Jesus' DEATH (Rom. 6:3-4), spiritually.  

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1942.0.html ----

They contintued to do virtually all of the "Law of Moses" in the immediate years after Christ's Crucifixion. They continued to BAPTIZE, they CIRCUMCISED, they KEPT THE FEASTS, they went up to the Temple to pray, etc.,  etc.    
But there spiritual education was not finished at the cross. Remember Jesus' own words:  "I have MANY THINGS TO SAY UNTO YOU, but ye cannot bear them now" (John 16:12).  Well if not "now," "when?" That was the LAST night He spent in the flesh with His disciples.  They were CONTINUALLY taught new things:  Peter going to the Gentiles, the Gentiles not required to keep the Law of Moses or circumcise, Paul stopped baptizing, etc.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not against anyone being baptized in water, I just don't see why it would be necessary or the benefit in it.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[E. Woods]

  Now do I believe baptism should be done?  YES when ever possible.
  What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, and I don't think Christ told him to go
get baptized or you can't come with me to Paradise.  So therefore under certian circumstances,
it must not be necessary.

Marques, I hope this clears up my statement for you. If not let me know.

  Be Happy.    EJW

One question EJW, who decides the certain circumstances of baptism being necessary? And how is this decision made?


Marques

         Hello Again Marques.
   I would say the circumstances in this case would be,  The thief did not want to repent untill he was
hanging on the stake. and then it was too late.  And I don't think it was his fault.
As you know it is God who calls people.  Jesus said "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent
Me draws him;"  and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
Jesus told Thomas, John 14:6,  " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me." So therefore I would say the circumstances in this case was God's decision.

   The second part of your question. ( how is this decision made?)
Marques,   I would say from the scriptures, It is Gods' decision, and how He makes it is all in His hands.
I don't know.   

   Thanks for your reply.    EJW
 

[mharrell08]

         Hello Again Marques.
   I would say the circumstances in this case would be,  The thief did not want to repent untill he was
hanging on the stake. and then it was too late.  And I don't think it was his fault.
As you know it is God who calls people.  Jesus said "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent
Me draws him;"  and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
Jesus told Thomas, John 14:6,  " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me." So therefore I would say the circumstances in this case was God's decision.

   The second part of your question. ( how is this decision made?)
Marques,   I would say from the scriptures, It is Gods' decision, and how He makes it is all in His hands.
I don't know.   

   Thanks for your reply.    EJW

Hello EJW,

Thanks for your reply.

You stated that water baptism is only necessary if God decides so, through particular circumstances. And how He makes these decisions you do not know. But then you stated that the thief on the cross repented 'too late' and could not be baptized.

So according to this logic, God waited until it was too late to call the thief and it cost him eonian life. And further more, this thief is to come up in the 2nd resurrection only because he never got the chance to dunk his head in water?

EJW, believe me, I'm not trying to belittle you. I'm really not, but this is the same unscriptural reasoning that the church teaches regarding tithing, altar calls, water baptism, witnessing, etc.

You agreed yourself that baptism is symbolic of a higher, spiritual reality. You even likened the American flag being symbolic. But even you know that one can be a US Citizen without owning a flag.

The scriptures are clear: IN Christ we are complete [Col 2:10]. When we worship the Lord in spirit & truth, by reading and doing His Word, we are being made complete. Water baptism is a sign as is circumcision, animal sacrifice, tithing, etc. They are not necessary (though one can do them if they would like) as they only point to a higher, spiritual truth.

Gal 3:24-25  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The members have provided ample teachings on this matter. I know that baptism was done early in the apostle ministry, but you have to realize that they continued to GROW, spiritually. Peter himself was hesitant to go talk to the house of Cornelius (Gentile household) and was only persuaded because of a dream [Act 10]. And this was AFTER Pentecost, with the spirit falling upon them. Christ had told the apostles to teach ALL NATIONS [Matt 28:19, Luke 24:47] months before then as well.

I think now, this is an issue that you have to grow from, spiritually. This is not meant to be condescending, but even the apostles had room to grow. PM me or the other members if you would like more links regarding this issue, but I think we've beaten the horse enough for this thread.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Craig]

I'm locking the horse in the barn now.

We can agree to disagree and still be bothers and sisters.

Craig