Luke 1:35

[dave]

I do not believe in the "immaculate conception," but I having some trouble with this. Jesus had to come from the lineage of Abraham>David>Joseph> and so as Matt.1 reads he did. Now then, I know that Jesus was/is/ and will be the Son of God,  my problem is where did the Holy Spirit come in all this? I have to believe that Joseph and Mary had intercourse and had a baby, Jesus, for the lineage, but the Holy Spirit played a part as well. I just need some other thoughts on this. maybe it has been dealt with if so a point in the direction would be appreciated. Thanks in His Name.

[Craig]

Why don't you believe in immaculate conception.  Joseph was obviously distressed over Mary's pregnancy, he had not been with her and suspected another man had.  The angel of God appeared and told him Mary was pure.  Do you find other scripture to support your belief?

Craig

[barrabus]

I can't get past the first sentance...( I do not believe in the "immaculate conception," ) ... to address the rest of the post I would have to get past that statement... I can't... in my mind if Jesus was born any other way then he would be no differant than anyone else and this part of scripture would become a lie and therefore all of it would be a lie...

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Here are a couple of excerpts, the first is from the 'Foundational Truths' transcript and the second is from the last conference "Is Jesus "God"' which has a great deal about who Jesus Christ was.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=6452.0 ---

My starting point with the trinity has always been two Scriptures.  Is God a trinity?  Is the Holy Spirit a person, separate from Jesus Christ and separate from the Father?  I have two Scriptures and you should mark them in your Bible or put them in your notes or something.

Mat 1:20 ...for that which is conceived in her (Mary) is of the HOLY SPIRIT.

What caused Mary to conceive the Child, Jesus Christ?  What?  The Holy Spirit.  Is that a separate person from His God and Father?  Well if He was conceived by the Holy Spirit whose Son was He? 

If I cause a woman to conceive, when the child is born guess who's the father of that son?  Me, not somebody else.  One man can't cause a woman to conceive a child in her womb and then when it's born, it's the child of some other man, I mean in the flesh.  That's a total biological impossibility.  Whoever conceives the child is the Father of the child.
Now who conceived Jesus Christ in His mother's womb?  The Holy Spirit.  Then when Christ was born whose Son was He?  One more Scripture;

2 John 1:3  Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, THE SON OF THE FATHER, in truth and love.

It took me a couple of years to find that verse, because I checked several times and I couldn't find a verse that said that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Father.  You know you find all kinds of verses about the Father, but I couldn't find one that actually came right out and said it.  Then one day I found it. 

So Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and He is the Son of the Father.  He is not the Son of the Holy Spirit.  Therefore the Holy Spirit is not a person.  You don't need to know anything else about the trinity.  That's it, the trinity falls right there.  It's finished, it's dead in the water.  Can you see that?


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,11033.0.html  --------

I've thought about this in years past when I didn't have the full answers to this.  Could a man, just a man now, be the Savior of the world?  See, if you're going to argue that Jesus Christ was a man, only a man and nothing divine about him, there are all kinds of problems, just philosophically speaking.

Why would He have to be conceived by God?  Why?  He's just a man and men are born all the time.  So we want him to be of the line of Judah.  All right, fine, let's get a Jewish boy.  You get a Jewish boy and Jewish girl, we'll marry them and they'll have a baby boy and he'll be the Savior of the world.  Why not?

Think about it.  Let's think about all the words. Why did Jesus have to be conceived by His Father?  Why, if He's just a man.  Jewish women have boys all the time.  If He had to be something special above a man, then He was no longer 'just a man.'  Did I say something wrong?  If He had to be something more than a man, then He's more than a man, He's not just a man.

Is any Jewish boy's life worth all the billions of humanity combined?  Is any Jewish boy worth that?  [attendee: No.]  How so?

Why didn't God say, We need a Jewish boy... Jacobson, we'll use you, we're going to crucify you and you're going to save the world that way. --  'Me?'
Yeah, what do you do for a living?  -- 'I'm a carpenter.'
Yeah, that will do. You're a carpenter, okay. We'll kill you and that way I'll save the whole world. --  'Of what value am I that my life is worth more than the whole world of humanity, billions of people?
What would God say?  Well yeah, you're worth more than the rest of humanity put together. --  'How so? Why?'

So why was He conceived by God?  If God wanted a man He could have chosen any man.  If He wanted him to be born of a virgin... fine, he could be born of a virgin. But why did He have to be conceived by God Himself? WHY?

[Attendee: To have the spirit of God with Him from birth.]  Well the Spirit of God was with a lot of people from birth.  But then again, if He had God's Spirit in a 'special' way from birth and it's a little boy... He wasn't just a man.  Because no man goes through his teenage years without lusting after a pretty girl.  So He had to be more than just a man.  'Just a man' lust and that's a sin. If He sinned, He can't be the Savior of the world, He is not the perfect sacrifice. We need a perfect sacrifice that is flawless. There is no human being that is flawless. Jesus Christ said so Himself.

Matthew 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And hH said unto him, Why callest thou Me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

Now we're going to make a second "good" one.  But out of just a man?  JUST a man?  If Jesus is just a man and that's all it takes to save the world, God could have used any Jewish boy to be the Savior of the world. I don't think any of you really believe that would have worked. There's more to Jesus Christ than just the fact that He was born like any other human being.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

Thanks one and all. I am really on your side of the question I am asking. I read an artical that was mainly on the trinity(which I do not believe either) and the writer more or less said that since we know that Mary a virgin(maiden, unmarried daughter) was espoused(bretrothed) to Joseph (this is his statement now) that if any other than Joseph were to be with Mary, that conception would be illigetiment. I certainly do believe that Jesus was "of the Holy Ghost." Matt. 1:18,20. I understand how I and my question can seem extreme, is the writers point off the mark? The lineage of Jesus through Abraham>Joseph must have some value. Luke 1:23 and Isa. certainly are complimenting each other. And I believe Luke 1:35 says the Holy Spirit is the sponser of the that Holy thing, which is the Son of God. But I still do not accept the "imaculate conception," even so, my faith is not wavering. Should this be a touchy subject I will leave it alone. Peace in His Love.

[Marlene]

All, I can say to this is that what Kat posted just boggles my mind. We really do need to take time and read the scriptures. I have read 2 John many times.
But, what really gets me is how Ray found that verse that blows the trinity away. It is not good enough just to read the scriptures we need to meditate upon them all.

We know that Joseph did not create Jesus. So, I have no problem with Jesus coming out of his Father. Because he did. I actually think people who believe in the Trinity see something that is not there. They believe a lie. It never made sense to me. But, the scriptures Ray has shown on this paper and other papers speaks volumes to me, that Jesus is no mere man.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

I have to believe that Joseph and Mary had intercourse and had a baby, Jesus, for the lineage,

Thinking of the immaculate conception, you would think the lineage that Christ need to come through Joseph?  Well actually there is an explanation and that is not necessarily so.  Here is an email about that.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3811.0 ---

Dear Ray,
   I'm stumped. Genealogies (several in the O.T. and the 2 in the N.T.) It's not so much that they are culturally male oriented as it is that they are jumping generations, names, etc. here and there. This makes a messy timeline. But more importantly;
     Mary(mother of Jesus) has no genealogical record that I have found. She was of Abraham (obviously) and may have been of the line of Aaron ... but of David, I don't know?? We know of Joseph as was customary. Yet Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Praise God! Point: wouldn't it be important to know Jesus' human lineage?
   Thanks,
   Josh


   Dear Josh:
   Apparently, Luke's account IS Mary's genealogy.
   King James reads:  "...the son of Joseph which was the son of Heli" (Luke 3:23).
   Rotherham:  "...the son of Joseph of Heli."
   Concordant:  "...being a son (as to the law) of Joseph, of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi.
   
   Now then, "son of" is clearly not in the Greek, and so it is not necessarily fitting that
   it should be supplied by the translators in this case.
   
   Joseph in Matthew's genealogy of Jesus is not the "son of Heli" but rather Jacob (Matt. 1:16).

   And so this could be a case such as we find in Deut. 25:5-6--"If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her HUSBAND'S BROTHER shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.  And it shall be, that the firstborn which she bears shall succeed IN THE NAME OF HIS BROTHER which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel."

   And so Heli may have been a "son IN LAW" rather than "a son." And this could be Mary's genealogy back to Solomon where they apparently merge again with Joseph's line. It is quite complicated. Theologians have made a life study of the genealogies, and their are several theories extant.

   Don't ask me any more questions on genealogy, as I really do have more important things to write about, but it is an interesting question.

   God be with you,

   Ray

[barrabus]

I think the term Holy Spirit in Luke 1:35 is referring to the spirit of God. I don't think it is a name for a separate entity... simple as that... even today it would be hard to explain something like that... just imagine how it would be to have every word you wrote to be discected and examined... I try to keep it as simple as I can... I still feel that one of the fundamental beliefs I have is that Jesus was born of a virgin... and that is one of the things that made him differant... not just a great man, or a prophet... I am afraid to write too much on this subject right now because I know so little... I have learned a lot during the last year reading on this forum and a lot of my ways of interpreting the scriptures have changed... I no longer blindly accept what I hear or read ... I pray for God to help me discern what is true... I realize that a virgin birth is incomprehensable to some... I think the whole concept of God is incomprehensable to the human mind... the evidence of creation all around us being created from nothing... way beyond comprehension... just the fact that I got where I'm at today from where I was at a few years ago is incomprehensable, you don't get here from there... sorry for straying from the subject... 

[Dave in Tenn]

Barrabus, it sounds to me that on these points you are in agreement with Scripture and Ray.  Jesus was born of a Virgin.  

"Immaculate Conception" is a theological (not a scriptural) term and therefor, by definition, confusing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

I do not believe in the Immaculate Conception either.  Let's get our terms straight.

[barrabus]

Thank you... I guess I don't believe in the Immaculate Conception either...

[Craig]

My appologies Micah, I guess I don't believe it either.  I always thought it was the same as the virgin birth.  You can tell I'm not catholic.

Craig

[Kat]

Put the Immaculate Conception right in there with the rest of Babylon bunk.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#immaculate -----

The Immaculate Conception is a Catholic doctrine, and has nothing to do with whether Jesus' mother Mary was a virgin at conception OR that Mary's mother was a virgin at Mary's conception.

What the doctrine proposes is that Mary was conceived WITHOUT ORIGINAL SIN. In other words, Mary was born a SINLESS person. Whereas David says that he was "conceived in sin."

Catholics teach that Mary was "immaculately conceived" WITHOUT sin. Like most Christian doctrines, it is false.

Sincerely,

Ray

[mmijares]

Learn another new thing today.
Thank you for this thread.

-Mijares 

[dave]

Thank you all. I was blessed to get on this computer two days ina row, Next I will print your thoughts. You have cleared up much, and Ray helped some. (Just Kidding!) Praying for you guys and Ray at the top of my prayers. Bless and saftey in HIs Will.

[Marlene]

Wow, Thanks to Kat for that email from Ray about Immaculate Conception. My best friend was Catholic. I never asked her, what the meaning to Immaculate Conception is. Course, I grew up Lutheran and they use to think there believes were so different. They taught trinity there and I never understood it. I though Immaculate Conception meant  she was just a virgin not sin free. Amazing, how long I believed this stuff in ingorance.  But, I did not know that all those times spent in different churches was going to lead me out of them. So, today I am no longer ingorant about Immaculate Conception. All, I can remember I would ask my friend why are the saying everything in Latin. I went a few times with her. I asked her how she knew what they were saying.  I also, asked her why they did not read there Bibles.  She told me the Pope and Bishops and so forth taught the Priest how to understand the Bible, and they told  them the meaning. I never liked that.

Well, the blindness just keeps changing to light. This post has helped me undestand alot. I can say I don't beleive in the Immaculate Conception either. No, human is sin free. It really goes to show you how blind we are till we receive the truth.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Marky Mark]

Being brought up Catholic I too was duped into that whole Immaculate Conception thing and how Mary was totally free of sin. Well, with the Truth of the Lord to guide me, I too agree with Marlene's comment that the blindness just keeps changing to light.

Thank you Jesus for shining your Glorious Light into the dark crannies of my heart.


Peace...Mark



On a lighter note, the Immaculate Reception was true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZi2ryWsShY