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elias3013:
I have heard God being described as having the following traits.
Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience.
Scriptural backup for these traits, I find as follows:
Omnipotent: Rev 19:6
Omnipresent: Psa 129
But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.
I would agree that God knows the beginning, for He started it and knows the end because He will end it, but I question that he knows in advance everything that every person will say or do.
If He does then why would He repent of making mankind then destroying it with a flood?
And if He knew in advance that the Israelites would sin in the wilderness, then why did He want to destroy them and start over with Moses?
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Ron
EKnight:
[/quote]But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Ron
[/quote]
How can God declare the end from the beginning and not know everything in between?
And as far as repenting of making man, I believe Ray says the use of the word repent here simply means God felt sorrowful. I just don't know exactly where to find what Ray said in all of his writing but I am sure someone else can readily find it.
Eileen
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: elias3013 on January 09, 2010, 01:50:34 PM ---I have heard God being described as having the following traits.
Omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscience.
Scriptural backup for these traits, I find as follows:
Omnipotent: Rev 19:6
Omnipresent: Psa 129
But all I can find to support Omniscience: ie knowing all things, is Isa 46:9-10 and I'm not sure this verse applies.
I would agree that God knows the beginning, for He started it and knows the end because He will end it, but I question that he knows in advance everything that every person will say or do.
If He does then why would He repent of making mankind then destroying it with a flood?
And if He knew in advance that the Israelites would sin in the wilderness, then why did He want to destroy them and start over with Moses?
Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Ron
--- End quote ---
Ron,
Eileen is right as are the scriptures...one can't declare the end AND bring it to pass [Isa 46:10-11] without having the foreknowledge to do it.
Excerpt from May '08 Bible Study, 'Does a Sovereign God ever Change?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7714.0.html):
Does the phrase “God repented” in Gen. 6:6 contradict the phrase “He is not a man that He should repent,” in Num. 23:19? Well what saith thou, what do you think? Is that a contradiction? He repented and He doesn’t repent, is that a contradiction? Absolutely it’s a contradiction.
A contradiction can not be true. A contradiction is stating two things that can not harmonize. Like the paper was white and the paper was black. It could have had black on the white, but if the paper was white then the paper was not also black. That’s a contradiction.
If God repented, but the Scriptures say He doesn’t repent, that’s a contradiction. How are we going to solve this? [answer: is it the wrong word?] Well at least you can’t use the same word twice. If you say it is this and it isn’t this, then you can’t use the same word. Could the word be used in one place or the other? No I don’t think so, because this word has more than one meaning. Instead of saying repenting the Concordant version has…
Gen 6:6 And regretting is Yahweh Elohim that He made humanity on the earth… (CLV)
Num 23:19 El is not a man that He should lie. Nor a son of humanity that He should feel regret… (CLV)
So they changed the word repent to “regret.” But one verse says He regretted and the other one says He doesn’t regret. So you still have a contradiction. Even with Concordant, as good as they are, I still find they have problems sometimes.
That same statement is repeated in I Samuel 15.
1Sam 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent.
GOD KNEW MAN WOULD DO THE SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN:
So why is He regretting that He didn’t wipe them out? Is that going to solve the problem? Well God says okay they’re all wicked and evil continually (Gen 6:5). The thought of their imagination is nothing but bad all the time, I’ll just wipe them out. I’ll start with Noah and your sons and wives will start a new world. But will that solve the problem? No. Does God know the end from the beginning? Yes. Did He know that His Son would prophesy one day by saying…
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, SO shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
As bad as it was back then? He said “So shall” it be. It’s going to be like that again. So did God solve His problem here by repenting and saying now I’ll do this? Now you are adding insult to injury. Not only did He change His mind about making humanity, then He says I’ll wipe them out and we find out it didn’t help, the human race will turn out the same way they were back then.
If you don’t believe the Scriptures and you start following these human traditions, you just get all kinds of problems. That’s why people write me emails like that. ‘RAY CAN’T YOU SEE GOD CHANGES HIS MIND, CAN’T YOU SEE IT!’
Unfortunately this word repent or regret, even sorry has come to mean that something is not the way you wanted it to be. Now you’re sorry, now you regret whatever it was. Now you repent, you change your mind about the whole thing. But God doesn’t change His mind, God doesn’t repent. Well what is this talking about here then?
“Regretting is Yahweh Elohim that He made the human race” and it repented the Lord that He made them. It grieved Him in His heart or it repented Him that He made them. (Gen. 6:6)
Well there is more going on here than meets the eye. If I ask everybody in here to close your Bible and tell me basically what is God doing here in this verse? What does He say He’s going to do? He's showing anger towards the human race… what is He doing?
[answer: Because He wants to destroy all of mankind] Why? [Because they think evil all the time] Anyone else? [Because he’s going to repent] Yes, it says He repents and the reason is because man is evil and He is going to destroy them. [He's going to change the world] Well yes, but it is going to degenerate mighty fast again. Because it wasn’t long after the flood that they were building the tower of Babel. But there is more in this verse. There is a problem and God is going to wipe out humanity except for Noah and his family, what else?
See most people read the Scripture and they don’t pay attention to the words, that’s why I say that. PAY ATTENTION TO THE ALL WORDS. There is a whole lot more going on in all these Scriptures, all of them! We learn certain key phrase from Scriptures and we can read that Scripture a thousand times and all we see is that key phrase that we were taught as children, but we never see the rest.
So He is going to destroy mankind… let’s read it for the first time. Now I’m not going into this today, because I don’t have time to explain it all and I don’t have a full explanation, only a partial answer to it.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him at His heart.
v. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repents Me that I have made them.
What? Why would He repent of making animals? See you never saw that before, did you? He says, ‘I’m not only going to kill mankind, I’m going to kill the animals. I’m going to repent of ever making them.’ Look at my little Tabby, He says He’s going to repent of making my little Tabby, that wicked evil Tabby?
There is always a lot more going on in the Scriptures. That’s why sometimes people learn two or three truths and they confront their minister and they think they are going to back him into a corner and make a fool out of him. But they always gets made a fool out of themselves.
There is a lot more going on in the Scriptures, but we don’t see it. Wait until I go through Genesis 1 at the conference, there is more going on there than you might realize. But you have got to look at all the words. Because didn’t you notice this and then did you notice this and did you notice this. We have this this this and this, six times, did you notice it and you say, ‘no I never noticed that.’
So people have a feeling about these words, repent means… like we are suppose to repent. That means to change your mind and change your heart, turn around and go the other way. Make a big change in your life. God repents too? So I guess He does all of that, repents of all His evil and all His sins and all this stuff? Then He is going to change His life and go a different direction? You will say, ‘No God doesn’t do that.’ Well you think He repents, so what do you think God does when He repents?
It’s like this guy from the email says, He feels sorry, He regrets the fact that He ever made them. He is saying in effect I wish I had not made them, I regret it. Is that what He is saying? And is this then making a liar out of God? He does repent, so He’s just like a man. He screws up, He does something that doesn’t turn out right and He repents of it just like a man?
I heard John Hagee say once… he was talking about the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve and he said, ‘God never intended (that’s the word he used) for them to sin or disobey.’ Oh really and do you think God lies? Do you think God never knows the end from the beginning? Do you think God changes? That He had one plan for them, but after they disobeyed then He went to plan B, is that what you think about God? You blaspheme! You don’t love God, you don’t have respect for God, you despise the word of God.
God says He knew that they would sin, from the beginning He knew that (Isa. 46:10). Hagee says God never intended that such a thing would happen. Lying false deceiving hypocrites.
Now the definition of ‘nacham,’ that’s the word translated perish.
Strong’s #5162 nacham means to sigh, that is breathe strongly; by implication to be sorry, that is… What is? Sorry is. What he is saying is, here’s what we mean by saying what it means to be sorry, do you follow? Here’s what we mean by saying sorry, that is… (in a favorable sense) to pity or console. That how it is used in a favorable sense. Comfort (self), ease (one’s self), repent (-er, -ing, self)
Can this word repent be used in a favorable sense so that we can apply it to God? What do you think? Yes. Now there is the definition and I contended that at least most times the first statements defining a word are the most profound or the most used and so on. Then they bring on A B C D and other ways that it is used in different ways, but there is the main meaning right up front.
Did you notice the words, “to be sorry, that is, (in a FAVORABLE sense) to pity, console… comfort?”
Here is something that amazed me when I did the research on this the last couple of days. This word for nacham appears about 110 and it is translated to repent 37 times. Now I know that the future, infinitive tense and the participial are ways the words are used, but I’m going to shorten this down. I don’t understand all of that either, I’m starting to learn some of it. It’s just a lot to learn.
I wish I did understand Hebrew and Greek, but in another way I’m glad I don’t. You know why? Because if I understood Hebrew and Greek and was a scholar and everything else. Then it’s like, well you know, the only way you can understand the Bible is you’ve got to be a scholar. But nobody could be a roofer, like me and know these things. You know how could a roofer know these things? People say, ‘what are your credentials Ray.’ I say, ‘I don’t have any, what are yours?’ I do claim one, I say, ‘I have the Spirit of God. What else do you want to know?’
So we see that this word ‘nacham’ can be used in a favorable sense, to be sorry. Here’s what we mean by sorry - to show pity, sympathy, mercy, comfort etc. So that is how it can be used. The word itself is used 37 times, translated as repent in the Hebrew Scripture. But guess what? It’s translated 70 times on the favorable side; to comfort or be comforted or comforting. That’s double, a hundred percent more times it‘s translated in some form of comfort.
So why do we have this one track mind, that this word can only mean to change your mind? God repented - He changed His mind, He made a mistake, ‘I’m sorry I ever created them, I screwed up, I repent I should have never done it what a big dummy I am.’ Come on that’s blasphemy. They won't put it quite in those derogatory terms, but they will say, ‘Well He changed His mind, it didn’t turn out right and He was sorry and He repented for ever doing it.’ It’s as though He didn’t even know it would happen. It’s like He said, ‘look at this, who would have ever thought.’ Well certainly not you God, I’m sure You would have never thought this could have happened. I mean You are only… God !? Can you not see where these teachings are not only wrong and unscriptural, but they demean God and they are blasphemous!
Hope this helps,
Marques
elias3013:
Marques
Thanks for the response, but that's really confusing.
If God repented in a favorable sense, He wouldn't have destroyed them, so His repentence had to have been in an unfavorable sense. It must mean that things didn't turn out the way He intended so He started over with Noah.
Just like He repented about making Saul the King, so He removed him and chose David.
If we just look at the scripture and not introduce opinions and suppositions, the truth will be seen.
There are more scriptures that state God changed His mind, than scriptures that state He doesn't.
That's the way I see it.
Ron
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: elias3013 on January 10, 2010, 01:34:02 PM ---Marques
Thanks for the response, but that's really confusing.
If God repented in a favorable sense, He wouldn't have destroyed them, so His repentence had to have been in an unfavorable sense. It must mean that things didn't turn out the way He intended so He started over with Noah.
--- End quote ---
God repenting does not mean God wishing He had not done something. It means to be sorrow or feel pity of whatever situation that He is speaking of. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked [Ezek 33:11] yet death is a part of God's intention for mankind [Ecc 3:3]. That's what it means to repent in a 'favorable sense'.
--- Quote from: elias3013 on January 10, 2010, 01:34:02 PM ---Just like He repented about making Saul the King, so He removed him and chose David.
If we just look at the scripture and not introduce opinions and suppositions, the truth will be seen.
There are more scriptures that state God changed His mind, than scriptures that state He doesn't.
That's the way I see it.
Ron
--- End quote ---
God KNEW that Saul would turn to corruption before he even made him king:
1 Sam 8:10-18 So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to (K)the people who had asked of him a king. He said, "This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. "He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots.
"He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. "He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. "He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. "He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. "He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants.
"Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day."
Again, the Lord DECLARES the end from the beginning AND BRINGS it to pass. I'm sorry Ron, but I don't believe you are seeing the truth at all.
Spend some time listening/reading through the bible study linked to above as well as the 'Free Will is a Myth' installments from the Lake of Fire Series.
Marques
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