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Early church fathers?
mharrell08:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1004.msg8462.html#msg8462):
Dear Pam:
Sometimes in life, Pam, you will not and cannot find a definitive answer to every question that you have. You won't find it in a dictionary, at your church, or in a friend. And at times even God does not appear to give you a needed answer. What are you to do? LIVE BY FAITH. Make a decision on all the facts you have, and then just do it. God gave us "minds" for a reason and a purpose. We are to use and exercise them. What should I wear today? Just make a decision and put something on. I know people who have worked very little in life because they never quite knew what they wanted to be "when they got big." But won't you possibly make mikstakes by living by faith? DUH! Of course you will make mistakes. A large part of life consists of making mistakes and learning from them.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2969.msg21959.html#msg21959):
Dear Chad:
God does not want the world to know He really is at this time, if He did, He would maybe do some of the things you suggest. We are to "live by FAITH" the Sciptures tell us. Living by faith means that we accept God at His word without ANY PHYSICAL PROOF of what He says. This may not be your time for God to reveal Himself to you.
May God open your eyes to see the invisible,
Ray
--- Quote from: Lupac on January 13, 2010, 11:17:42 AM ---Sorry for trying to get to the bottom of everything.
--- End quote ---
Lupac, the time will come when you will have to step out WITHOUT seeing the 'bottom of everything'. No one here has gotten to the 'bottom of everything' either...we simply have to trust God at His Word.
That is why the scriptures refer to us as Believers. We believe ('have faith in') God to do what He says He will do and perform in the earth as well as the entire universe. I know you feel frustrated that all your posts continue to clash with others, but lack of faith is the reason why.
You continue to want some sort of proof as to why we, the apostles, the prophets, and Christ in His ministry look to God and place our total dependence on Him. Aren't our very lives 'proof' enough?
Jesus gave us the perfect example...willing to be beaten and crucified while maintaining total reliance on God to bring Him through.
Paul and Peter being beaten and eventually killed for walking in these same truths.
All the hate mail and vile threats Ray receives...some even glory in the fact he has cancer. And for what? He hasn't swindled people out of 10% of their money, promoted violence or oppression, exploited children or anything of the sort. Ray simply brings the good news, God reconciling the world to Himself, and takes all the abuse when he could have simply kept to himself and be happy and content with the Truth as he knew it.
Like I said before, one day you're going to believe these scriptures and have to step out on faith...you may not see it yet but it is going to come.
Marques
Kat:
Hi Lupac,
Another thing to consider, is that we can see that probably many of the early Believers had left the church/synagogue, because of the persecution they were facing and were coming together in homes. Here is an excerpt that explains that and there is also an excerpt that states there were 'early church fathers' that did believe in universal reconciliation and the last email about the early fathers knew there was no word for eternity in Scriptures.
http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ---------
Did new converts to Christ continue to attend synagogues to be edified in their new-found-faith? NO! They were persecuted in the synagogues! They left the synagogues. They left the mother Church. Remember our lesson where Jesus said, "I will build My church..." (Matt. 16:18). Jesus didn’t say that He would purify or purge the existing Church. No, Jesus built a New Church—His Church, "MY Church" Jesus called it.
And so it was in the religion of Judaism that the people learned of God and the Law of Moses. But when they learned of the gospel of Jesus Christ, they were forced to "COME OUT OF HER…"
When we read the history of the Apostles in the book of Acts, they and their new converts to Jesus did not continue to worship Jesus in the synagogues. They now began to meet among themselves and in private homes. Paul’s habit was to go to the synagogues of whatever city he was evangelizing to teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul did not go to these synagogues to worship Jesus Christ, but rather to teach that Jesus was the Christ. And those who were truly called of God left the synagogues and met with believers of like mind in private homes.
It is true that the Apostles continued for a time to go up to the Temple (not the local synagogues), but they were warned under threat of death that they should discontinue teaching in the Temple. But Peter, who denied Christ three times just weeks earlier, now spoke fearlessly:
"And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to TEACH AND PREACH Jesus Christ" (Acts 5:42).
THE CHURCH OF GOD IN PRIVATE HOUSES
There was a transition period where the disciples still went up to the temple, but God’s intimate dealings would now be found in more humble surroundings. When the Holy Spirit was poured out on the first Saints of Jesus, it was not in a synagogue, but in a house:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all THE HOUSE where they were sitting" (Acts 2:1-2).
Church services were held in houses:
"Likewise greet the church that is in their house" (Rom. 16:5).
"The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house" (I Cor. 16:19).
"Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house� (Col., 4:15).
"Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ, and Timothy our brother, unto Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer, and to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in your house" (Philemon 1-2).
When we come to the famous Jerusalem Conference in the fifteenth chapter of Acts, we read that Paul and Barnabas were "…being brought on their way by the CHURCH…" (Acts 15:3). This is the Church of Jesus Christ, not the church of the synagogue system. Notice that in this conference their determination was to not force the Law of Moses on new Gentile converts:
"Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with THE WHOLE CHURCH…" (Acts 15:22).
The High Priests did not attend this conference. This was the first ‘ecumenical counsel,’ if you will, of the Church of Jesus Christ, consisting of only those who believed, who formulated policy which would be binding on the whole church.
The Jews had "synagogues"—church buildings. The newly converted Christians came out of those synagogue church buildings and their doctrines, and met in homes. Why? Mostly because Christ was not taught or tolerated in these synagogues. In order to worship and follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, it became necessary to "come out of her"—the synagogue system of religion.
Jesus Christ, the teachings of Jesus Christ, and the followers of Jesus Christ were hated and despised by most leaders of most synagogues. Do we think that anything has changed regarding this in today’s churches? If Jesus Christ returned to virtually any Christian church in the world today, unrecognized in a business suit, and began teaching His own Gospel, the leaders of the churches would throw Him out. And I say this without the least hesitation as to what the implications of my statement are.
http://bible-truths.com/student.htm --------
You can say that I believe contrary to Graham, Spurgeon, or Sunday, but I guarantee you that the early church fathers did not believe in the unscriptural heresy of endless torture. Among those who saw God' greater glory in the greater hope of salvation to all are, Origen, Eusebius, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory, Didymus (of whom S. Jerome said, "Didymus surpassed all of his day [380] in knowledge of the Scriptures). "The Eastern Church of that time (fourth and fifth centuries) was permeated, from Gregory of Nyssa downwards, with the wider Hope [that of universal reconciliation]. See Spirits in Prison, Ch. iv. Also: Diodorus (378), Bishop of Tarsus, St. Chrysostom from the school of Antioch, and the list goes on and on. And many of these men read the Scriptures in their original languages long before the KJV started inserting such nonsensical incoherency as "for ever AND EVER" into its pages.
The evidence is available in both secular history and the Scriptures. Most intoxicated with the liquor of Christendom, however, have no desire to know the truth. "Indeed, beside Origen, Gregory of Nyssa also, Gregory of Nazianzus, Basil, Abrose himself, and Jerome, taught everywhere the universal restitution of things, asserting simultaneously with it, AN END OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT."--C.B. SCHLEUTER, pref. In Erig, (Migne.) Read, Christ Triumphant By Thomas Allin.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2598.0.html ----------
Words are not defined by "impressions." Greek "aions" always had reference to a period of time, be it short or long. This is true from the earliest Greek writings. The early church fathers also knew this to be true. It was in the year 540 that Justinian called for a church council. He wanted to establish that the life of the saint was to be "everlasting," and so concluded that it must be taught that the life of the doomed must also be "everlasting." He knew that the Greek words aion and aionios did not have this meaning of "everlasting," so he attached the word "ENDLESS" to these words which he knew meant ages. And so, thus was born the unscriptural, damnable heresy of "ENDLESS AGES." Here we have absolute irrefutable proof that "aions" did not mean endless or would not have been necessary to attached the word "endless" to a word if it also meant endless. "Everlasting punishment," and "eternal life" are theological LIES that have no place in the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
aqrinc:
Hi Lupac,
Even the Apostles did not understand most of what Jesus Christ taught, until after His Resurrection when He (Jesus Christ) Opened up their Minds to understand The Scriptures.
(ASV)
Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Was not our heart burning within us, while he spake to us in the way, while he opened to us the scriptures?
The same way today each persons mind, must, be opened, by This Same Jesus Christ; for you, and me, and they, to understand the Scriptures.
(Rotherham)
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them—These, are my words, which I spake unto you yet being with you: That all the things that are written in the law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms, concerning me, must needs be fulfilled.
Luk 24:45 Then, opened he their mind, to understand the Scriptures;
Luk 24:46 and said unto them—Thus, it is written, That the Christ, should suffer, and arise from among the dead on the third day;
Luk 24:47 And that repentance for remission of sins should be proclaimed upon his name unto all the nations,—beginning from Jerusalem.
Luk 24:48 Ye, are witnesses of these things.
Luk 24:49 And lo! I, am sending forth the promise of my Father upon you; but tarry, ye, in the city, until ye be clothed, from on high, with power.
george :).
onelovedread:
Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: onelovedread on January 13, 2010, 01:40:29 PM ---Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
--- End quote ---
Just tough love Onelovedread, that's all...no malicious intent.
Marques
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