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Author Topic: God's justice?  (Read 3571 times)

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Lupac

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God's justice?
« on: January 21, 2010, 11:23:52 PM »

Did Ray ever write an article on God's justice? Let me explain, I am currently trying to deprogram myself to stop thinking like a Babylonian. I was taught that, God has no "standard" He holds Himself to. Whatever God decides to do, it's by definition just, even if it doesn't seem that way. (Hell, election, you get the picture.) James Kennedy, R.C. Sprol, and Doug Wilson are/were household names where I grew up. I was also taught that God, right now, if He wanted to, could throw everybody alive now, and everyone who ever lived into hell, and no one would even have the right to question Him, and He would be PERFECTLY JUST in doing so. (You might can imagine the kind of warped childhood I had, as far as God went.)  I would have nightmares sometimes, when I was little, about going to hell. It never physically hurt, I was just completely alone in a dark cave, with light coming through cracks of fire in the floor. I never told my parents, but I was always terrified of God. So my question is, what is God's "standard" of justice, and what does justice mean to God? Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 11:26:50 PM by Lupac »
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mharrell08

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 11:42:17 PM »

Did Ray ever write an article on God's justice? Let me explain, I am currently trying to deprogram myself to stop thinking like a Babylonian. I was taught that, God has no "standard" He holds Himself to. Whatever God decides to do, it's by definition just, even if it doesn't seem that way. (Hell, election, you get the picture.) James Kennedy, R.C. Sprol, and Doug Wilson are/were household names where I grew up. I was also taught that God, right now, if He wanted to, could throw everybody alive now, and everyone who ever lived into hell, and no one would even have the right to question Him, and He would be PERFECTLY JUST in doing so. (You might can imagine the kind of warped childhood I had, as far as God went.)  I would have nightmares sometimes, when I was little, about going to hell. It never physically hurt, I was just completely alone in a dark cave, with light coming through cracks of fire in the floor. I never told my parents, but I was always terrified of God. So my question is, what is God's "standard" of justice, and what does justice mean to God? Thanks.


Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 16 D-4 (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm):

JUDGMENT AS DEFINED BY SCRIPTURE IS GOOD

"The Judgment of God" are scary words for most people. Partly this is due to the Church portraying Judgment as a horrible and fearful thing involving sentencing many to an eternity of insane torture by fire. We will now take a Scriptural look at the doctrine of Gehenna Fire Judgment.

God is presented as the Great Judge over His creation from early Scripture. The first time the word "judge" is found in Scripture:

    "...shall not the Judge of all the earth do right" (Gen. 18:25).

Actually this phrase is: "shall not the Judge of all the earth do justice."

"Justice" is translated from the Hebrew mishpat and it means according to Dr. Strong: 'a verdict-favorable or unfavorable.' And our dictionaries add to this: "a quality of being just; fairness." So "justice" is "just and fair" (interestingly John Hagee teaches that an eternity of torture in a literal hell of literal fire is "JUSTICE," and Dr. James Kennedy teaches that hell is "FAIR").

NO, an eternity of torture in fire is not "justice," nor is it "fair," as these two great pillars of heresy contend.

The word "Judge" in this verse is from the Heb: shaphat and means according to Dr. Strong: "judge, to pronounce sentence-to vindicate or punish."

It is clear that they are very similar. God the Judge will, "do JUSTICE," or will "Judge justly," or as King James translates it "do right." And not surprisingly, the New Testament tells us the very same thing:

    "Because He [God] has appointed a day, in the which He will judge the world in righteousness..." (Acts 17:31).

Notice that Jesus will [1] judge, [2] the world, [3] in righteousness.

Next let's read one of my favorite verses (Isaiah 26:9):

    "When Thy [1] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants [2] of the world [3] will learn righteousness."

What a marvelous spiritual match. When Jesus Judges the world in righteousness, the world will "learn righteousness."

Ironically, the first time we find the words "justice and judgment" in the Bible is in the very same verse:

    "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him" (Gen. 18:19).

Here we learn that doing "justice and judgment" brings the blessings of God.

Will Jesus and God His Father do the "right" and just thing when it comes to judging this world? Certainly. In the Old Testament we read that God does not change (Mal. 3:6); God the Father does not change (James 1:17); Jesus Christ does not change (Heb. 13:8 ). Use your God-given minds for a moment and consider the insanity of infinite punishment for finite sins, and the same punishment for both gross and minor sins.

    "But the fearful [Gk: timid], and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8 ).

Does anyone in their right mind believe that murderers and timid people should be sentenced to the same "eternity of punishment?" Why even most heathen governments match the punishment to fit the nature and degree of a crime. But most Christian theology does not have even the good sense of some pagans.

Even when "many stripes" were administered (even among wicked men), they were to be limited to 40 lashes: Deut. 25:3; Lk 12:47; Acts 16;23; II Cor. 11:24.

To "judge" means to set right, whether it is in chastening or sentencing. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right"-that is to judge justly so as to bring about change. 

    "When Thy [God's] judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world [everyone] will learn righteousness" (Isaiah 26:9).

When the wicked are left to their own devices, they will NOT learn righteousness, but when God's just judgments are added to the mix, and Jesus judges in righteousness, they cannot but "learn righteousness." Why won't the Church teach these marvelous truths? Well, of course it can't, seeing it is deceived.

God's judgments and the knowledge of His plan and purpose for humanity has reached precious few in the past, but it is prophesied to cover the earth:

    "They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Isa. 11:9).

And:

    "For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea" (Habakkuk 2:14).

It is an easy thing to turn men (and women) into beasts and heartless criminals. Torturing them or annihilating them would likewise be an easy thing for God to do. But turning vile and demented criminals like Hitler, Saddam, or Charles Manson into godly saints, now that's an accomplishment.

Of course most Christians and theologians and pastors do not believe that God is up to a task this great. Just wait. If God can spiritually transform a criminal like the Pharisee Saul, into the loving Apostle Paul, Saddam and the boys will not challenge God's ability to convince them of their great need of repentance.



Hope this helps,

Marques
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Lupac

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 01:46:08 AM »

Thank you. It's hard to believe the truth, when lots of people tell you the truth is a lie, and their lies are the truth.
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Stacey

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 03:10:04 AM »

Thank you. It's hard to believe the truth, when lots of people tell you the truth is a lie, and their lies are the truth.

If you know its a lie than why is it so hard to believe the truth?

If you tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough, the people will believe it. Adolph Hitler.

KJV Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

NIV Mat. 15:14  Leave them; they are blind (deceived)guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

NIV Luke 6:39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?
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Stacey

daywalker

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 03:47:49 AM »

Thank you. It's hard to believe the truth, when lots of people tell you the truth is a lie, and their lies are the truth.


II Corinthians 6:14 Do not become diversely yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness? Or what communion has light with darkness?

15 Now what agreement has Christ with Belial? Or what part a believer with an unbeliever?

16 Now what concurrence has a temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, according as God said, that I will be making My home and will be walking in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

17 Wherefore, Come out of their midst and be severed, the Lord is saying. And touch not the unclean, and I will admit you,

18 and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me, says the Lord Almighty."



Revelation 18:3 for, as a result of the wine of the fury of her [Babylon's] prostitution have all the nations fallen. And the kings of the earth commit prostitution with her, and the merchants of the earth are rich as a result of her power to indulge.

4 And I hear another voice out of heaven, saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you should be joint participants in her sins, and lest you should be getting of her calamities,

5 for her sins were piled up to heaven, and God remembers her injuries."


« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 03:48:52 AM by daywalker »
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Lupac

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 12:49:44 AM »

Thank you. It's hard to believe the truth, when lots of people tell you the truth is a lie, and their lies are the truth.

If you know its a lie than why is it so hard to believe the truth?

If you tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough, the people will believe it. Adolph Hitler.

KJV Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

NIV Mat. 15:14  Leave them; they are blind (deceived)guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

NIV Luke 6:39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?


Because it's all I know. When your born under a lie, and have lived almost all your life in that lie... It's hard to let go. Plus, I have very deep-seated fear, of God and hell, and the lies.
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Stacey

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2010, 05:56:29 AM »

Quote
Because it's all I know. When your born under a lie, and have lived almost all your life in that lie... It's hard to let go. Plus, I have very deep-seated fear, of God and hell, and the lies.

No it is not ALL YOU KNOW. You have been given sound counsel from Ray's teachings and from members here on the forum.

You say that you,

1. Fear God
2. Fear Hell
3. Fear lies

and the reason you give is,

1.born under a lie
2.have lived almost all your life in that lie
3.It's hard to let go

From the statement you have made here I believe you are either seriously confussed or you are not ready to believe the truths presented to you from Ray and the members here. Either way Lupac, I'll be praying for you.


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Stacey

bobf

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2010, 06:45:48 AM »

Hi Lupac,

I think the verses below address your question.  Abraham asks God if He would do what is right.

  • Genensis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

God could have replied "anything I do is automatically right" but instead God seemed to acknowlege the question as valid.

  • Genesis 18:26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes


And I'm sure you know the rest of the story.


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Roy Martin

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2010, 07:53:18 AM »

Lupac, do you really believe that God is the kind of Father that wants us to fear him for being a hell burning torturing kind of God. One that tries to force us to love him by scaring us to nightmares and a life time of fear? No one can be made to love like this. Its impossible. Do you think that you can get someone to trust and love you and believe you by threatening them with torture and all the other things that are lies lies lies. Has it worked on you? Has God scared you to love Him with all your heart?
 No! you don't love Him or trust Him. You believe there is a god of some kind, but not a God of love.
Your words of unbelief are undeniable, and the things you don't say are also undeniable.
 I know you can't help what you feel, and that God is in control, and that He can turn you around in the blink of an eye. I hope to see this some day.
 You say you were born under a lie. Well! join the party of people that lived with these lies much much longer than you have.
  It has to be God that will open your eyes and remove your fears. No one but God knows when or how that will happen. If God is drawing you to seek Him then it will happen. Be sure of that, and that's the truth. I think God is working in you.
  All you show is negative words about God. I haven't read one word from you that has said God is good, or love and forgiving, or the many other wonderful things that can be said about Him.
 Has anything you read in Rays teachings had a positive affect on you, or has anything all of us have said to you had any kind of encouragement to alleviate any of your fears and doubt? Just curious, because you have never said so.
 I hope you don't mind me saying the things I've said. Its not meant to offend you or put you down.
   To want, desire or have a passion for something, you have to perceive it as something good. If you believe that God is scary and fearful and evil, then why would you want Him? Satan can deceive you to see something as good, but he can also deceive you to see God as what you are afraid of. Having said that; Satan acts on Gods authority, so tell me Lupac, who is deceiving you, God or Satan? Do you believe in anything that doesn't worry or cause fear in you? Just curious.
Peace
Roy
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 10:40:52 AM by Roy Martin »
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Kat

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2010, 10:57:12 AM »


Hi Lupac,

2Co 10:4  For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
v. 5  casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God,

So this is the fruit that you have gained from Babylon "very deep-seated fear, of God and hell, and the lies."  These are "strongholds" that are keeping you captive to fear.  But the truth will set you free!

Rom 6:21  But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
v. 22  But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.
v. 23  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

Now that you are learning the truth do you not feel a real sense of joy for these things?  Embrace this truth and it will set you free from the lies and fear. Every time you gain a new understanding of this truth in your studies you are distancing yourself further and further from the lies and the fears.  Stay in the word and prove all things.

John 8:31  So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, "IF you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples,
v. 32  and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

2Tim 1:7  For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

Hold on to this Scriptural truth, you can trust it and depend on this promise.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Lupac

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2010, 01:21:53 PM »

Quote
Because it's all I know. When your born under a lie, and have lived almost all your life in that lie... It's hard to let go. Plus, I have very deep-seated fear, of God and hell, and the lies.

No it is not ALL YOU KNOW. You have been given sound counsel from Ray's teachings and from members here on the forum.

You say that you,

1. Fear God
2. Fear Hell
3. Fear lies

and the reason you give is,

1.born under a lie
2.have lived almost all your life in that lie
3.It's hard to let go

From the statement you have made here I believe you are either seriously confussed or you are not ready to believe the truths presented to you from Ray and the members here. Either way Lupac, I'll be praying for you.




Sorry, that sentence should have read "all I've known". I do know different. I found it very hard to believe in God, even when I didn't know about Ray. I forced myself to "believe" because I was so afraid of God. I just want to stop worrying about everything. Thanks Roy. I guess I haven't really said anything positive about God. I'm sorry. I'll be thinking about what you said. Also, I see things, like that Tektonics site or whatever, people who use lots of words to say nothing. They scare me. I try not to even think about them.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 02:07:56 PM by Lupac »
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Roy Martin

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2010, 02:56:04 PM »

Lupac, I was a teenager when I first watched the movie Psycho. I was afraid to close my eyes in the shower for almost 10 years because of that shower seen. Just don't expose yourself to such things.
 I'm older now and I can watch things that don't scare me, but it still goes into the mind and can affect dreams in more ways than you can imagine. Stay away from negative things. At least with this place you don't, and won't find fearful things. This is a positive place to be. Its not perfect, but I believe its the best your going to find. You stick to just here, and stay away from everything else, and within a short time you will see a difference in yourself as those childish fears and worries turn to something safe and secure. Exposure seems to be the hub of your whole affair. Try it. You have lots to gain and nothing to lose but fear and worry. Show me you are serious. Let me see the tough side of you. I know you have it, but you run from it. I'm a man, your a man, but show me some toughness in the man that you are and lets both be men and not children with childish fears. Aren't you tired of getting beat up. Man you have to fight some times. Just do it. You owe me nothing, but I think you will except my challenge or crawl into a corner. Which will it be?

Peace
Roy
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Lupac

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2010, 03:03:06 PM »

I'll do it. FYI, I'm not like this in real life, meaning, I don't talk or act like this to other people. All this fear is in my mind, but I don't show it to anybody. I probably wouldn't even be able to look you in the eye, and say I was afraid. I would lie, because I'm always trying to be the fearless one. It's weird...
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Arion

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2010, 03:41:07 PM »

I know your on different forums Lupac and I've read some of the other things you have written.  I think Roy has shared some good wisdom with you.  You know deep in your heart whether or not your hearing the truth here but then you go out and dabble around with others that have thier own issues with  doubt and they amplify some of the fears your dealing with.  I would shut out all those other spiritual annoyances and stick where you can be fed and encouraged.  Not that this forum or Ray has all the truth.  Of course not.  But you won't find a constant stream of doubt and unbelief being magnified here either.  If you really want the truth then continue to seek and you will find.  And also don't doubt in the darkness what God has give you in the light.  Immerse yourself in the scriptures here and in time the doubt and unbelief will will lessen.
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Roy Martin

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2010, 05:13:23 PM »

I'll do it. FYI, I'm not like this in real life, meaning, I don't talk or act like this to other people. All this fear is in my mind, but I don't show it to anybody. I probably wouldn't even be able to look you in the eye, and say I was afraid. I would lie, because I'm always trying to be the fearless one. It's weird...


Okay, you said you'll do it, stay away from everything but this place and Rays teachings. Is that what your saying you will do? Lets be clear on this. Hey, I'm taking time to try and help you. Your here for help aren't you? You want to get rid of the fear in your mind, right?
 If what I ask you to do does nothing for you in lets say a month or two, and you honestly say you feel no different then I'll say I'm sorry and I tried, but that's not going to be the case because I trust God with all my heart.
 Don't tell me your going to do something, and then think your fooling me. It won't work with me because God has gave me what I call spiritual common sense. Try to fool me and you'll see what it is.
 This is for you Lupac, not me. You accepting this challenge is said so all can see. Are you sure you can do it? Of course you can. Don't be ridicules.
 Lets start right now; okay?

Roy
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Lupac

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2010, 05:48:35 PM »

Yeah I'll do it. Why would I lie over the internet? I'll stay away from everything but Ray's teachings for two months.
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Roy Martin

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2010, 06:01:31 PM »

Great!! Lupac. I'm counting on you and your word.
 I and others here really do want to help you. Stick with us and study Rays teachings and the scriptures he provides that back up his teachings. Let it grow in you.
 No more talk about all the other stuff thats negative. Positive influence is what this is all about.
 Exposure.

Peace
Roy

« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 06:12:56 PM by Roy Martin »
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Arion

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2010, 06:45:15 PM »

I would also resist the urge and stay away from Tentmakers as well during that time my friend.  Nothing against those people at all and we certainly don't 'own' the truth over here but this forum has a rule against teaching for a very good reason.  Tentmakers is pretty much wide open and various winds of doctrine are free to flourish in order to be discussed.  When your stronger in your faith then this might not be harmful for you.  Right now however you need to jealously guard what is allowed to take root in your mind.  This is a very safe place for those who are coming to grips with these truths as doctrine contrary to the scriptures will not be allowed free reign.

Let me also hasten to add that this has nothing to do with cultish type mind control.  You know the truth my friend.  It has been witnessed to time and time again in your heart or you wouldn't be here.  What this has to do with is to not give opportunity to the enemy for double mindedness to have it's way with you.  God bless and we will be here for you as time go's on.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 06:46:53 PM by Arion »
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daywalker

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Re: God's justice?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2010, 08:36:53 PM »

I'll do it. FYI, I'm not like this in real life, meaning, I don't talk or act like this to other people. All this fear is in my mind, but I don't show it to anybody. I probably wouldn't even be able to look you in the eye, and say I was afraid. I would lie, because I'm always trying to be the fearless one. It's weird...


You're not alone Lupac!

I for one remember countless nights going to sleep terrified that I was going to wake up in the fiery furnace of the Babylonian Hell... For most my life, the one thing that I've been extremely good at was 'sinning'. I went to church most Sundays, and sang gospel music, even played guitar and bass in the church band; but come Monday morning I was back to doing the norm...

...but just like you I never shared any of this information with anyone. During church everyone seemed sooo happy! I didn't want to 'darken' the mood by bringing up the Hell doctrine. Seemed I was the only one that was 'hot and bothered' by this horrific fate supposedly awaiting most of humanity, and perhaps myself if I screwed up bad enough... I always felt like one day God was just gonna give up on me...


Two years ago [next month] I stumbled upon Ray's site. I spend a few weeks straight reading, and studying, and praying, and opening my bible and reading and studying and praying........ Since that time, NOT ONCE have I gone to bed in fear of the flaming inferno that had been 'burned' into my brain all my life. Now, don't get me wrong, I still have my worries about life and stuff.. but I know without a doubt that God is for me, NOT against me.



God really is our Loving, Heavenly FATHER. It'll take time for all this to sink in, but it will sink in. Anyway, hope this helps a bit... God Bless.

Christopher  8)
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