Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[peter]

Hi everyone, I am new here and the only thing I am interested in doing is learning as much as I can. I have long read Ray's articles and most reread again and some again. In one article Ray refers to this enigmatic statement of our Lord, i.e. the last shall be first..first shall be last.." but I have never come across an explanation either by Ray or anyone else to date. Does anyone have a scriptural explanation? Thanks Peter

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Peter
Your first post! Brilliant! Well done!
You say

The only thing I am interested in doing is learning as much as I can.

I am glad that you have assimilated Rays teachings. It makes it easier to communicate with a person who has digested some of the rich food supplied to us in the banquet of Truths unveiled by Ray.

I want to share with you, that I too came here with a huge appetite! Even when I was a baby, I could consume a seemingly endless supply of bananas. Good for  brain function you know! My parents left me with my uncle one day and he was staggered at the seemingly bottomless pit of my appetite.  Not that I just ate and ate and ate, demanding more and more and more. NO. My uncle fed me and fed me and fed me and I just obeyed and swallowed and obeyed and swallowed and on and on. The bananas ended and my Uncle was amazed!  I think I recall feeling how funny it was at the time .I remember his face! It brings a laugh to me even now. His eyes nearly popped out of his head! He was trying to gauge how many bananas I would have to eat before I could stop.  Well, he didn’t have enough bananas for that and for THAT I can now THANK GOD! 
 
Why do I tell you this? I tell you this because, like my Uncle who returned me to my parents as he was only baby sitting, the food will change and you will grow. My parents did not need to measure my ability to consume bananas. They were not numbering how many I could consume.  Unlike my uncle, I get fed a variety of food not just one sweet gooey semi solid measuring the length, height breadth and depth of my stomach! I still enjoy bananas. That may never end!

You have to eat your vegetables too. Brain food morphs into revelation after we have done the homework, the study, the digesting the work of eating the Word of God. The Word of God is not just bananas either.

So before I could go onto dessert, I had this little thing  pop up denoting the signal, the mark, the revelation, the boundary, the limit of my consumption, that said to me that I was
.
2Ti 3:7  ever learning and never able to come to the full knowledge of the truth.

Boy oh boy, that changed the menu! Who fed me that? God, my Father did and what a huge blessing that was! I came to the end of that course. We all have to.
You ask, observe, enquire quote : Ray refers to this enigmatic statement of our Lord, i.e. the last shall be first..first shall be last.." but I have never come across an explanation either by Ray or anyone else to date. Does anyone have a scriptural explanation?
.....unquote

Peter, enigmatic statements of our Lord are just like bananas.  Now, before you think I have lost the plot let me explain.
Ray has given us the TOOLS. Oh yes he has!

There is a Scriptural explanation to EVERYTHING. Oh yes there is!

You come back now and bring me a tool that you have found to begin to eat up this Word of God. Find a tool first. Is it the fork, is it the knife or the spoon. Is it pay attention to the Word or is it one of the twelve ways to understanding and unlocking the Word of God. You can do it. Find a utensil. What will it be. Take your time….Don’t just pick up anything and throw it back at me. You are going to have to use it yourself.
 
There are many wonderful adults here that can help you learn how to eat without messing up. You are with the family of God. We are at the table and so minding my manners is a good beginning.

WELCOME to the Forum Peter. I said WELCOME last when it should have been said first. WELCOME AGAIN  FOR THE SECOND TIME  

Arc

[Silvia Martin]

HI Arcturus,
I think I read about it somewhere in Ray's papers. Sorry, I don't have the verse or link.
He said something like this: God is going to choose the people that are at the bottom of the food chain...the poor... the weak...the uneducated...and sets them above the ones that think they're at the top....the rich ...the ones that think they know all about God. The ELECT will judge the rest  of humanity.

    Silvia


P.S. Somebody, please clean this mess up

[Kat]

Hi Peter,

I'm glad you have joined us 
It is the common bond that brings us together here, Bible Truths.  I hope you will continue to visit us and fellowship here, we all are striving to learn as much as we can and I must say I have gained and continue to gain enormously from the discussions here, so do join in.

Here are a few links so you can see what we have available here.

The forum rules, it will help you see how this forum is moderated.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html

Forum Indexes & lots of Info.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,14.0.html

Ray's Videos
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html

Ray's Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Ray's 2008 Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

Transcripts of Ray's Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html

Who Am I? (members pics and personal stuff)
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,16.0.html


Now I do not know any place where Ray has discussed this phrase "the last will be first, and the first last."   But I did look through the Scriptures and I think there are keys in there to understanding this, here is what I found.

Mat 20:10  But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius.
v. 11  And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner,
v. 12  saying, "These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.'
v. 13  But he answered one of them and said, "Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius?
v. 14  Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you.
v. 15  Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?'
v. 16  So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."

Mark 9:34  But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be the greatest.
v. 35  And He sat down, called the twelve, and said to them, "If anyone desires to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

Mat 23:11  But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
v. 12  And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
v. 13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
v. 14  Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.
v. 15  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell (gehenna/judgment) as yourselves.
 
Mat 12:45  Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."

Mat 19:29  And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name's sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
v. 30  But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Num 24:20  Then he looked on Amalek, and he took up his oracle and said:
       "Amalek was first among the nations,
       But shall be last until he perishes."

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ----

Here is the temporary fate of most humanity:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to DESTRUCTION, and many there be which go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Did Jesus come to SAVE all those who enter the broad gate to "destruction?" YES HE DID:

"For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was LOST" (Matt. 18:11)!

There it is!

There is what? Where does that verse say that Jesus came to "SAVE that which was DESTROYED?" Why right in the verse, of course. You see, the New Testament was written in GREEK, and in Greek, here is what Matt. 18:11 says: "For the Son of man is come to SAVE that which was apollumi." And just what does apollumi mean in English? Strong’s Greek Dictionary of the New Testament: "#622 {92x} apollumi to destroy, to perish, or lose" (page 37). Ninety-two times in the New Testament we read of "destroy, destruction, destroyed/perish, perishing, perished/lose and lost, and they are all translated from the same one word, apollumi! So whether one is destroyed, perished, or lost, it matters not to Jesus—HE SAVES THEM ALL!
--------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Silvia

I do not know what mess you are talking about.

Kat, these Scriptures come to mind to follow on...

1Co 4:7  For who makes you to differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
1Co 4:8  Already you are full! Already you are rich! You have reigned as kings without us! And oh that indeed you did reign, that we also might reign with you.
1Co 4:9  For I think that God has set forth us LAST, the apostles, as it were appointed to death; for we have become a spectacle to the world and to angels and to men.
1Co 4:10  We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honorable, but we are despised.

And....

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40  for God had provided some better thing for us, that they should not be made perfect without us. 

Arc

[G. Driggs]

Hi Peter, welcome to the forums.

This is all I could find with regards to what Ray has said about, "the first will be last and the last first".

From www.bible-truths.com/emails.html

Dear Ray,

I'm am still so happy I came on your site.  Okay.  This is the truth.  I read my bible now more than ever (answered prayer), and I come away with joy and peace and comfort (that never happened consistently until now).  I have a newfound compassion for people in the world, including my father (who was especially not one of my favorite people in the world, for reasons I won't bore you with).  I sit and think all day long everyday, "Who can I convince about this?"

See, I've tried telling my good friend, Michelle, and I have tried telling my sisters and brothers, but they don't believe me!!!  They think I'm nuts.   I've given them your website and I get no response.  I was expecting for them to come back to me with, "Wow, Gina, this is so fantastic!!!   What a load that's been taken off my shoulders!"  But instead, I get nothing.  I don't get angry, but frustrated!  I have all this great news!   and they won't listen,

I'm so excited!  I just want everyone to know how good God is. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your schedule to research all of this for people like me!!  We are so blessed.  God Bless You!!  I am so blessed!

Peace!
Gina

[Ray Replies]

Dear Gina:

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.

Sadly, not all get as excited over the grand Truths of God as you do, but we know this is a time of apostasy and failing faith. Jesus asked, when the Son of Man returns to this earth, will He find faith?  Not much!  But it is all part of God's plan, just as your questions confirm.

Many are called, but few are chosen, and the last shall be first and first shall be last. Israel was hand-picked of all nations to be God's example of how a nation can be blessed and prosper when they obey and love God. Israel did not pass the test. God proved through Israel, that the carnal mind cannot keep the laws of God, nor can the carnal mind live God and love neighbor.  So God is calling out a people who are not in a place of honor in this world. Poor people in the city, farmers, peasants, unlearned, people to a large extent.

As in the bidding to the wedding feast, God said bid the poor, maimed, the blind, etc., to come to the feast (of salvation). Paul said,

    "For ye see your calling, brethren, how that NOT MANY wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak thing of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and thighs which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to being to naught things that are" (I Cor. 1:26-28).

I know that I fit into this bunch of social rejects. But thank God He is making KINGS out of peasants!

So God is now calling a "spiritual Israel" who obey from the mind and heart, seeing that that is where God has placed His Holy Spirit.  And so the "Children of the kingdom" (those who were in line for he throne--Israel) are set aside unto God chooses from the Gentiles a people to bear His Name. And then, Israel of old will be grafted back into the tree of life (Rom. 11), all Israel will then be saved, as well as the rest of Gentile world.

May God continue to bless and inspire you, Gina, as you yield to His perfect will for your life.

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also think that Kat and Arc hit it right on with the Scriptures they provided.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[Marky Mark]

Just to add; from a past post on the subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6598.0.html


Peace...Mark

[arion]

This is my opinion only...but something I've felt that God has shown me about this verse.  I've also known that this refers to the physical jews who were first are going to be last.  But I also feel that the physical 'church' who was first (in their own eyes) is going to be last as well.  

Mat 7:21-23  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Coming up and getting 'saved' (or so I thought) through the church system of man leads to pride thinking that we were the chosen elect and quite a bit of smugness as well.  If those 'sinners' don't have enough sense to choose Christ then they deserve what they get, ect.  I wonder if those in the church (of man) who are certainly given a lot more than the masses of humanity that know nothing about God and the scriptures and who are first in their own eyes will be surprised in the judgment and will actually be the last that are saved through the lake of fire?

Like I say this is my opinion only and I'm certainly open to correction on it but I'm thinking that there might be a lot more to this verse then what first appears to be.

[Dave in Tenn]

 I wonder if those in the church (of man) who are certainly given a lot more than the masses of humanity that know nothing about God and the scriptures and who are first in their own eyes will be surprised in the judgment and will actually be the last that are saved through the lake of fire?

Mat 21:28-31  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Neverless...

Luk 15:10  Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

I don't know how all these things are going to take place after the resurrection, but if the 'church' which denies the Power of God to save His whole creation sees those they have abandoned to Hell entering the kingdom before them, after the "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" will come the same joy the angels have over all those sinners (publicans and harlots) being brought to repentance in the judgement of God.  Then they can come in too, rejoicing.

We can do that now.

[Dave in Tenn]

Welcome. Peter.  I forgot to do that.   

[peter]

Thanks for the welcome, and especially thanks for all the work in replying and I believe the answer is a compound one with more than just one simple easy answer, like most answers given in scripture it appears that if you dont live and become the answer you cannot understand it. So yes, instead of entering the wedding feast with my own garment and finding the highest table expecting great honour and better payment, I will strive to stand humbly hopefully inside the door waiting for a garment to be provided. Again many thanks. My whole family still cannot see it but nevertheless accept now that they have no way to respond. My mother, now after 82 years of being a faithful church sister found the key for her in the simple expression, Can evil be done in a city and I the Lord have not done it, when she realised finally the all encompassing power we had hid in "church". She then heard my excitement and also began to see and understand who is GOD, it was then that, her eyes and face said that is what she had been looking for all her life. Thanks be to Him for the comfort and encouragement of all witnesses of Him.

[Silvia Martin]

    Hi Peter,
I like the way you put it, with the wedding feast and all. Made me think of how I'm considered poor by peoples standard, but through their handmedown GARMENTS (I work for rich people) makes me feel rich. I know that sounds carnal like I care about fashion I DON"T. what I mean to say is that God provides so beautifully for me and still keeps me humble. He doesn't give me lots of money to buy my own but humbly receive my blessings through others. He never fails me either. It's just like the scripture , I'm waiting at the door,needing God to provide until the day he will ask me to come in and join the feast.


  God bless,
  Silvia
       

[geokuhns]

Welcome aboard Peter. We look forward to hearing from you again.
Here is an email by Ray on your question. I don't see where anyone has posted it so here it is.

http://bible-truths.com/email17.htm#context

Have a great day! 

[cjwood]

My mother, now after 82 years of being a faithful church sister found the key for her in the simple expression, Can evil be done in a city and I the Lord have not done it, when she realised finally the all encompassing power we had hid in "church". She then heard my excitement and also began to see and understand who is GOD, it was then that, her eyes and face said that is what she had been looking for all her life. Thanks be to Him for the comfort and encouragement of all witnesses of Him.

[/b]


hello peter and welcome to the forum. your statement above, about your mother, made me so happy for her. i have tried many times to speak about the truths of the Scriptures that the Spirit has shown me through ray's intensive writings and the Scriptures themselves to my own mother, age 82, but she refuses to take off her garment of comfort which her church has shrouded her with. but, i have spoken the Truths to her and that is all i can do. i am content with that, though i feel like a loner when at family gatherings, because i no longer go to church or believe their lies. but all praise and glory to God the Father and Jesus Christ my Savior, for i know that ALL will on That Day, know the Truths which they now reject.

claudia

[indianabob]

Good afternoon Peter and welcome,

Good question!

Just consider all the responses that you received!
And all of great benefit to each one of us, especially the elders
who are still being honed and polished.

Thanks, Indianabob

[darren]

I was just thinking (which takes alot out of me)LOL). The King of Babylon,Satan,the tower of Babel, the beast that sit in the high place,the high priests the pharisees, 1st in their own hearts and minds. Is it possible that those who have this proud, arrogant attitude will be last?? The meek shall inherit the earth.

Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

The proud shall be made meek. The crooked shall be made straight.

God shall make the changes and bring repentance, change, turn about, through His Goodness. So yes....maybe...

[Silvia Martin]

Good stuff guys...hey this posting stuff is fun

[peter]

Thanks George Kuhns, yes Ray does confirm that the answer is He came to his own and they received Him not so they were first given the opportunity but in rejecting become last...Paul also confirms that rejection "...we go to the gentiles....' Thanks.

[Phil3:10]

Welcome Peter,
Praise GOD for the wonderful peace your Mother has found. So very many of us are praying that those we love will come to find HIS perfect peace. The church hides so very much and deceives so very many. I ask for prayer from all that my precious wife may find what your mother has found and come out of the Harlot church system. She is just now beginning to question the system and prayerfully she will begin to look for the real JESUS and not the church JESUS.
In HIM,
Phil3:10