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Enoch was taken up
Deborah-Leigh:
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
WE are reconciled. Enoch was transported........... :)
Arc
Oatmeal:
In reply to Daywalker.
I did a bulletin board search about a week ago because I was wondering about Enoch and Elijah. I was unsatisfied with the Enoch/Elijah explanations that I found.
In Hebrews 11:5 it says that “Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him”.
Genesis 5:21-24
And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
A straightforward reading of Genesis seems to say that Enoch walked with God for three hundred years (after he begat Methuselah), begetting sons and daughters, and then God took him after a total of three hundred sixty and five years. Hebrews says that Enoch was translated that he should not see death.
You say that the Bible says that Enoch died. When did he die? Immediately after God took him at the age of 365? That doesn’t make sense. If you say that God took him some time before he reached the age of 365, how do you then explain that a man who pleased God, and who was translated that he should not see death, lived for a far shorter time than his contemporaries?
And I think that most of us know that “all” does not always mean a pure and mathematically exact 100% all. “All Jerusalem…” etc - probably there is a better example that I could use but it is not worth the time to look it up.
But since the list is so short let us agree that the “all” means 100% all.
If you look at Hebrews chapter 11 you will see that the list is split in two. Abel and Enoch are in the first part of the list.
Hebrews 11:4-5
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Notice the fact that Abel is dead is mentioned? And this is contrasted with the fact that Enoch “should not see death”?
Read the words, as Ray would say. I hope that that is an appropriate comment to make.
And what would a five year old understand from these verses? That Enoch died or did not die at all?
Then comes Hebrews 11:6 which breaks the list:
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
This is a very important verse (off the subject but important enough to mention) because it tells us that if we have faith then we will diligently seek God.
Then the list starts again, which is the start of a new list, because the death of Abel has already been mentioned.
At the end of the second list (Hebrews 11:13) it says “These all died in faith”, which of course is referring to the second list only because of the break and the fact that Abel is dead has already been mention; this death being contrasted with the statement that Enoch "should not see death".
I think that the phrases "he was not; for God took him" and "and was not found, because God had translated him" and "should not see death" should be treated with more enquiry and thought.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
What instruction are we to receive from the phrases just given?
That Enoch died a lot sooner than his contemporaries and possibly immediately after God took him?
I honestly find the explanation - that Hebrews 11:13 says that Enoch did die - escapist and shallow. I’m sorry, but I do.
I find the answer NO ANSWER AT ALL.
Perhaps the list is not broken in two - it is just appropriate to mention the seeking of God after the mention of Enoch. I do feel strongly and honestly though that I do have a satisfactory explanation. I would not feel happy to say to others: “Enoch died”.
And Arcturus, I have just read your entry. Would you provide further explanation?
Kat:
Hi Oatmeal, here are a few more emails about Enoch that might help.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,941.0.html ----
Well, I guess then, you have done it--you have found ONE verse of Scripture that literally contradicts HUNDREDS of other Scriptures such as the fact stated by no lesser Authority than our own Creator, Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. You say that Enoch was taken to be with God and never die. God resides in "heaven" and here is what Jesus had to say about anyone (including Enoch) ever being with God in heaven:
"And NO MAN [pay close attention to the phrase "no man," Tim, seeing that Enoch WAS A MAN] has ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the SON OF MAN which is in heaven" (John 3:13).
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5855.0.html --------
Actually, Heb. 11 is extremely informative. You must read past verse 5, however. Also you statement that Enoch was "taken up" is unscriptural. Nowhere do the Scriptures tell us that Enoch was "taken up." Enoch was translated so that he was not to see death at the location God translated him from. Translated merely mean to be "transported" from one location to another. The same was true for Elijah. He was taken a little more dramatically in a chariot, however, he too was merely transported from one location to another. After this incident, we are told that Elijah wrote a letter (II Chron. 21:12), and assuredly he did not write a letter from God's throne room in heaven.
Likewise, Enoch DIED. The Scriptures plainly tell us this:
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Who are the "these" that "all died" in this verse? Why they are the ones mentioned in the verses above: Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sarah.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4219.0.html -------------
You state that Enoch "was taken into Heaven," and that this is stated in the
verse that I use to show that he died. Here is what is said of Enoch in Hebrews
11:5, "By faith ENOCH was translated [Gk: 'transfer or transport'--from one location
to another] that he should not see death [when he was transported/transferred]; and was not found, because God had translated him [to another location]: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God."
Now then, Where do you see anywhere that Enoch "was taken to HEAVEN?" Where?
However, go down to verse 13 and you will read this: "THESE A-L-L DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." Yes, these "ALL" died. These "all" included Abel (Ver 4), Enoch (Ver. 5), Noah (Ver. 7), Abraham and Sarah (Ver. 08). And so the Scripture is clear: Enoch "DIED."
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,891.0.html -------
Dear Tim:
I will make a couple COMMENTS in your email..................
Hi Ray,
From what you say, you think that Enock was transported some where else on earth and died later at some point. Where did God relocate Enock?
COMMENT: The Scriptures do not tell us where.
Hebrew tells us that God removed Enock from earth
COMMENT: Hebrew tells us NO SUCH THING.
because he was pleasing to God. Enock never saw a physical death like we will.
COMMENT: Nonsense, of course Enock died: "By faith Able...By faith Enoch...By faith Noah...By faith Abrfaham...Through faith also Sara...THESE A-L-L [including Enoch] DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises..."
The word transported means to take or remove it doesn't mean that God put Enock some where else on earth.
COMMENT: The Greek word "metatithemi" means "to transfer--literally to transport..." Strong's Lexicon.
"Transfer" means "To convey or cause to pass from one...to another." And "transport" means "To carry from one PLACE to another [place]..." (The American Heritage College Dictionary).
Enock wasn't seen again on earth as the scripture tells us.
COMMENT: That proves absolutely nothing. Lots of people transfer to different locations, and are never heard from again. Does that prove that they all went to heaven and never died?
Hebrew 11:5 states By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
These verses are pretty clear,
COMMENT: Yes they are. Pity you can't believe what they say, however.
"These [including Enoch] ALL DIED in faith, NOT having received the promises...." Pretty clear to me!
God be with you,
Ray
arion:
I think there are times where the baggage we bring from babylon gets in the way. With some forms of eschatology it's very important that Enoch or Elijah didn't see physical death because many are taught that these are going to be the two witnesses spoken of in Revelation (or some variation thereof). Because of course since it's appointed to men once to die and then the judgment, (Heb 9:27) it's necessary for whoever these witnesses are that they never experienced physical death. But if it's physical death that the verse is talking about then of course there is Lazarus who was brought back and those who Christ and the apostles raised (and those who were raised after the crucifixion), exc. A lot of times it's really hard to lay down these ideas but although we can argue with the scriptures we can never prevail against them in the long run.
shaine:
--- Quote from: daywalker on January 27, 2010, 03:36:32 PM ---
--- Quote from: Felix on January 27, 2010, 03:28:11 PM ---I believe that when a person dies he is dead.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgement.
Hebrews 11:5 Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death.
How do we reconcile these two verses? Help.
God Bless
Felix
--- End quote ---
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God
Enoch was transferred to a different location because he was in danger. Did Enoch never ever die?
Nonsense, Enoch died a long time ago! See for yourself:
Hebrews 11:4 By faith ABEL….
5 By faith ENOCH…
7 By faith NOAH…
8 By faith ABRAHAM…
11 By faith even SARAH…
13 THESE ALL DIED in faith, not having received the promises…
Who “ALL DIED”? ALL THESE who were previously mentioned in the verses preceding verse 13!
Hope this helps,
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
Wow, I never saw that. Great point, daywalker!
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