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third heaven
olasupo jacobs:
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
dear brethren, please i would like to know more about this subject "the 3rd heaven"... what does Paul meant by his assertion here. some people believes he is into astral travel or projections, others use this scripture to support soul migration thereby affirming that people move about after they are dead and other stuff. please i would like to hear from the forum what does the above scripture really teaches in line with the truth of God's word.. thanks Olasupo jacobs
Deborah-Leigh:
Hey Olasupo Jacobs
I believe the brethren here can certainly bring to your mind more food on the topic you question that is discussed by Ray in his writings.
I am reminded of Gen 28:12 And he dreamed. And behold! A ladder was set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to Heaven! And behold! The angels of God were ascending and descending on it!
There are two types of angels that are Angels of God and messengers of the devil. I believe I am adhering to God because I am fully persuaded that I should not harm you. Gen 22:12 And He said, Do not lay your hand on the lad, nor do anything to him. For now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only one, from Me.
You present the dreams, astral travel projections that OTHERS USE in THEIR understanding of God’s Word to support THEIR imaginations of soul migrations and other such imaginings to affirm that when people are dead, they are not really dead. God says, when you are dead you are AS asleep…..that could be like in dream state, imaginings, assumptions, innuendoes. Priorities get mixed up when dreams take over. :)
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
1Jn 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death.
Whether God has or has not abolished death, is revealed in whether God has or has not resurrected, converted, repented, the natural mind into His Mind and His Heart to manifest His Fruit of His Spirit.
We know we are not to make alliances with false reasonings and stupid apprehensions. Both YOU and I have to be FULLY persuaded, NOT doubtful, not courting innuendoes or following after the imaginations of OTHERS. Is the reference to others just another way of saying that YOU have these thoughts that you wish to make visible to US who are awake? WE prefer to follow Christ not dreams.
Who do YOU say I AM is, was the question posed by Jesus. Who DO YOU SAY He is? THAT is the question. 8)
God is not faceless. He IS be made visible by His Spirit. Following His Spirit is not the path of the dreamers dreams.
We have all to use the tools given to us here, to unlock the Word of God.
The Scripture, ANY Scripture does not teach but it SHOWS the mystery of God.
Advice: Don’t concern yourself with what others are asking or wondering. YOU follow Christ. IF YOU are being courted by imaginings, then, assuming and IF you are, then it is God who is leading you to the truth by giving you the experience of the crooked path first.
Of this I am fully persuaded.
Arc
Kat:
Hi Olasupo,
Take a look at the first verse in that chapter.
2Co 12:1 To be boasting, is needful,—it is not, indeed, profitable, yet will I come to visions and revelations of the Lord: (Rotherham)
We are told by Paul first off that he is speaking of "visions and revelations." Then he goes on to speak/boast about what happened to him in this vision/revelation.
v. 2 I know a man in Christ, who, fourteen years ago, whether in the body, I know not, or out of the body, I know not, God, knoweth, such a one as this, caught away, as far as the third heaven;
v. 3 And I know such a man as this, whether in the body or apart from the body, I know not,—God, knoweth,
I think what Paul is saying here is that this was an extra ordinary experience, CLV has it in verse 7 "transcendence of the revelations," but he could not fully explain what happened to him. Yet we have in the first verse that he knows it was in a "vision" that some how he was "caught away." If Paul could not explain what happened to himself, who can?
Now I don't know about "astral travel or projections" or "soul migration." But I do know that when a person dies, they are unconscious in the grave and "know nothing."
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they will die;
But the dead know nothing,
Paul explains that we only have hope in the resurrection of the dead or else those who have fallen asleep/died have "perished."
1Co 15:16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
v. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
v. 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hope this helps.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Marky Mark:
I believe what Ray teaches about the Kingdom of Heaven can also pertain to the third heaven in some way or another.After all, is not heaven in our minds?
A quote from Ray.
--- Quote ---To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom
--- End quote ---
.
There are certainly different levels of Spiritual awareness for all people. The lowest[sea]some[earth] and the very mind of Christ[heavens]. My feeling on this is that there are different degrees of understanding and to what degree of understanding[only by Gods revealings]upon the believers heart and mind, can then one be made aware of things of the Spirit.God then dictates what level of understanding believers in the heavens are made aware of.
Without question, Paul was given a higher level of heaven than all, albeit from "visions and revelations."
Just a thought.Hope this helps some.
From Rays paper; THE LAKE OF FIRE - Part XIII
http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html
SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN
There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:
"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).
The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:
"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:8).
There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that ‘fish’ do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).
Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:
"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
More proof:
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! …" (Rev. 12:12).
Next notice that:
"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).
Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can’t get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.
The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now ‘spiritually-minded;’ dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.
Peace...Mark
Akira329:
Great find Mark! ;D
Antaiwan
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