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Author Topic: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping  (Read 2546 times)

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Arion

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Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« on: February 01, 2010, 04:49:29 PM »

Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 7:14  for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;


I've run into a number of people on a few different forums that are really into lawkeeping and the grind that go's along with it.  I realize fully that the law (ten commandments and all the various ordinances of Moses) is spiritual.  The Law is the shadow of the reality to come and we need to come out of the shadow and into the light.

Ray has dealt with something similar to this on one of the audio teachings  but for the life of me now I can't remember which one and I want to go back and review this subject.  I am not looking to argue with these people because they like us will not be able to understand these concepts if God doesn't open the heart and the eyes, but for my own edification is there a better way to explain this concept with others?  

Especially in the first verse where Jesus seems to be saying that his disciples should both do and teach the law of God.  I know Jesus isn't telling us to go and try to keep the ten commandments as Paul dealt with this in various scriptures but what exactly is Jesus saying about doing and teaching the law?  Any insights?

Blessings,

Doug
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 04:51:18 PM by Arion »
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bambam

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 06:08:37 PM »

I too am studying the law right now.  And the scriptures that talk about the end of the law for us and the abolishing /death/fulfilment of the law for us now are numerous.  But it does get frustrating when I cannot understand what certain scriptures like the one you mentioned mean.  It can get frustrating, but maybe God is just keeping us on our toes.  I know that God does not contradict himself and that's what keeps me going. 


If you find where Ray talks about the law could you post it and I will do the same if I run into it.  Thanks! 
Beth
 
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aqrinc

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 06:32:51 PM »

Quote
Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Rom 7:14  for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;

Here is some of what you may be looking for. There is a lot more information in just about every paper that Ray has written and posted here.

Excerpt from Keeping The Sabbath---2007 Bible Study.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6310.msg50887.html#msg50887

 HOW THE CHURCH PLAYS ĎRELIGIONí

When I was in the Worldwide Church of God every year we celebrated Passover and we partook of Ďrealí unleavened bread and Ďrealí wine, ho ho ho (said sarcasticly)Ö not leavened bread and grape juice.  
Then we also, to out do all the other churches, we would line up all the chairs around the parameter of the hall.  Then we had plastic wash basins and warm water and a towel for every person.  Then one person would wash the person sitting down feet and they would dry off, get up and put their shoes on.  Then the one that had washed theirís would sit down and they would wash their feet.  And they would dry off and put their shoes back on.  We did this once a year.  
Why did we do that?  To fulfill the commandments, so that we could feel righteous and holy and better than others.  Did people do that everyday of their life?  NO.  Why?  Because they didnít know what it meant.  Well they knew what it meant, but they didnít think about it everyday.  Because well you only do it once a year, so Iíll think about it when itís time to do it.

That is NOT what Jesus meant when He said we should wash one anotherís feet.  
That is NOT what Jesus meant by partaking of His body and His blood either.  That one day out of the year, we eat a little wafer and drink a little grape juice.  That is not what He meant that is NOT keeping Passover or the Lordís Supper.
Cutting off the foreskin of a manís penis is NOT circumcision.  You say, Ďwell it represents carnality and so on.í  Well what do women cut off?  Are there no carnal women?  What do they cut off and how do they live by this?  

I made a list of physical rituals that carnal-minded Christians like to do, according to their faith.  Well depending on which religion, but sooner or later everybody does some of this.  The physical letter of the law can, in fact, deceive you.  
Tithing - pseudo tithing
Religious pilgrimages
Circumcision
Holy Day observance
Clean and unclean foods
Prayer cloths
Foot-washing
Fasting
Alter calls
Water baptism
Making vows
Anointing oil
Burning incense
Doing penance
Speaking in gibberish
Lighting candles
Pictures
Icons
Idols
Holy water
Holy smoke
Confession
Last rights
Sign of the cross
Rosary beads
Wearing phylacteries
The Lordís Supper
Sabbath keeping
New moons
Prayer wheels
Religious junk

And This letter.

http://bible-truths.com/emails.html#tempt

Dear Ray,

I'm am still so happy I came on your site.  Okay.  This is the truth.  I read my bible now more than ever (answered prayer), and I come away with joy and peace and comfort (that never happened consistently until now).  I have a newfound compassion for people in the world, including my father (who was especially not one of my favorite people in the world, for reasons I won't bore you with).  I sit and think all day long everyday, "Who can I convince about this?"  

See, I've tried telling my good friend, Michelle, and I have tried telling my sisters and brothers, but they don't believe me!!!  They think I'm nuts.   I've given them your website and I get no response.  I was expecting for them to come back to me with, "Wow, Gina, this is so fantastic!!!   What a load that's been taken off my shoulders!"  But instead, I get nothing.  I don't get angry, but frustrated!  I have all this great news!   and they won't listen,

I'm so excited!  I just want everyone to know how good God is. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your schedule to research all of this for people like me!!  We are so blessed.  God Bless You!!  I am so blessed!

Peace!
Gina

[Ray Replies]

Dear Gina:

Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.

Sadly, not all get as excited over the grand Truths of God as you do, but we know this is a time of apostasy and failing faith. Jesus asked, when the Son of Man returns to this earth, will He find faith?  Not much!  But it is all part of God's plan, just as your questions confirm.

Many are called, but few are chosen, and the last shall be first and first shall be last. Israel was hand-picked of all nations to be God's example of how a nation can be blessed and prosper when they obey and love God. Israel did not pass the test. God proved through Israel, that the carnal mind cannot keep the laws of God, nor can the carnal mind live God and love neighbor.  So God is calling out a people who are not in a place of honor in this world. Poor people in the city, farmers, peasants, unlearned, people to a large extent.

As in the bidding to the wedding feast, God said bid the poor, maimed, the blind, etc., to come to the feast (of salvation). Paul said,

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that NOT MANY wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:  But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak thing of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and thighs which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to being to naught things that are" (I Cor. 1:26-28).  

I know that I fit into this bunch of social rejects. But thank God He is making KINGS out of peasants!

So God is now calling a "spiritual Israel" who obey from the mind and heart, seeing that that is where God has placed His Holy Spirit.  And so the "Children of the kingdom" (those who were in line for he throne--Israel) are set aside unto God chooses from the Gentiles a people to bear His Name. And then, Israel of old will be grafted back into the tree of life (Rom. 11), all Israel will then be saved, as well as the rest of Gentile world.

May God continue to bless and inspire you, Gina, as you yield to His perfect will for your life.

Ray


george :).

« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 06:38:05 PM by aqr »
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Kat

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 07:01:19 PM »


Hi Doug,

I was thinking that you might be thinking about the 'Repentance' audio. Here is an Excerpt from the transcript to see if this is what you are talking about.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html -------

Rom 2:3 ďAnd do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?Ē

Heís saying absolutely not. Now the whole council of God, the sum of Thy Word is true. Letís get to it here.  Now you are all familiar with the scripture,  ďfor where there is no law there is no transgression (infraction of the law)," (Rom 4:15), right?  And it says the law was added, because of a lot of sin.  Now God made codes that said, your not going to get away with this any more, this is bad and this is bad and this is really bad, so they wonít get away with things anymore.   So they added the law to make sin really appear to be sinful.  But notice what James says, and maybe we never got this before.

James 2:7  ďDo they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?
v. 8  If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;
v. 9  but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
v. 10  For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all (or it can read liable to the punishment, the penalty).Ē

Now letís just think about this a little bit.  We always thought about this verse on a level about here. You know you break one, youíre guilty of them all. We thought like, 'well I guess if you committed adultery and God said you shouldnít, so I guess you dishonor God and so you break the first commandment or something like that.'
But does this verse mean what it says, if you break one, youíre guilty of all?  Are you ahead of me yet?  Do you know where Iím going with this?  Some are figuring it out.

If you break one point of Godís royal Law, you are guilty of all. I said yesterday I want us to see why we really need to repent, and see just how serious it is in Godís sight. I know God will eventually take everybody to be where they need to go, but sometimes God accelerates things, by the foolishness of preaching.  Thatís what I am doing.  Maybe you're going to see something here that you never conceived of before. That is if you break one point of His law... weíre not talking about the spiritual law here, you know how Christ made the law so much high that Moses law. One says donít commit this sin, Christ said donít even think it, okay.  Much higher law. If you break one point, your GUILIY of all.

Nashville 2005 audios
Repent: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Ray_Repent 1.mp3
Guilty Of All: http://bible-truths.com/audio/N05 Guilty_of_ALL.mp3

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Arion

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 07:19:33 PM »

Thanks Kat and George...

It's the Dec 2007 study that I was thinking about.  I know I have saved that audio on my computer somewhere but I must of named it differently than 'keeping the Sabbath'.  I'm going to listen to that one again.

Just wondering if Ray has ever touched on Mt 5:19 though.  There is a lot of things that God hasn't revealed to me as of yet so maybe this is one of those things I have to keep digging on.  The law is spiritual so even the ten commandments are spiritual yet Jesus said that those who do and teach them (commandments) will be the greatest in the Kingdom of heaven.  The closest I can come to understanding that at this point is the ten commandments are spiritual so the teaching and the doing also has to be spiritual in nature and not the physical.  I mean one can keep the commandment against murder but still have murder in your heart, ect. 
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aqrinc

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 07:50:52 PM »


Arion,

Those who Spiritually do and Teach Them, no human can do this Spiritually. That is why we must Rest In Jesus Christ, our SABBATH. These Scripture below, are telling you exactly how The Spiritual Laws are Kept by us humans.

Heb 3:6 (MKJV)
But Christ was faithful as a Son over his own house; whose house we are, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

Heb 3:7-19 (MKJV)7  Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice,
8  do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness,
9  when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years.


10  Therefore I was grieved with that generation and said, They always err in their heart, and they have not known My ways.
11  So I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest."
12  Take heed, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13  But exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14  For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15  while it is said, "Today if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation."


16  For some, when they had heard, did provoke; however, not all who came out of Egypt by Moses.
17  But with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
18  And to whom did He swear that they should not enter into His rest, but to those who did not believe?
19  So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:1-9 (MKJV)
1  Therefore, a promise being left to enter into His rest, let us fear lest any of you should seem to come short of it.
2  For also we have had the gospel preached, as well as them. But the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

For we who have believed do enter into the rest, as He said, "I have sworn in My wrath that they should not enter into My rest;" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4  For He spoke in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested the seventh day from all His works."


5  And in this place again, "They shall not enter into My rest."

6  Since then it remains that some must enter into it, and since they to whom it was first preached did not enter in because of unbelief,
7  He again marks out a certain day, saying in David, "Today," (after so long a time). Even as it is said, "Today, if you will hear His voice, harden not your hearts."
8  For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day.

So then there remains a rest to the people of God.

george ;D.

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Kat

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 08:53:46 PM »


Hi Doug,

Mat 5:19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I would think that we "teach" by example?  I think this Scripture can be applied to how we live our lives, as we can be a walking example in many ways to anybody that sees us and notices what we are doing. 

1Tim 1:16  but I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display His perfect patience for an example to those who were to believe in Him for eternal life.

1Tim 4:12  Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purity.

1Pe 2:21  For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His steps.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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bambam

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 11:22:16 PM »

This has been a very helpful thread, thank you!! ; :)
Beth
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2010, 01:24:36 AM »

Hi Arion.  Didn't Jesus also teach the law as Spiritual?  There is no contradiction.  He commands us to obey and teach the law...and we know (from the lips of Jesus before Paul ever wrote Romans) that the Law is Spiritual.  So obey and teach the Law.  We can't obey OR teach the Law without 'knowing the Law is Spiritual'.   

Jesus also said that we were to have a righteousness greater than the Pharisees.  Do you really think He meant for us to be more 'legally' holy than they were?  And talk to and about them like He did?  Go to Paul again...according to the Law, blameless...Pharisee of the Pharisees...yet at the same time, Cheif of Sinners.  Paul knew the Law was Spiritual.  He also knew his own state.

Maybe that helps a little. 

 
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

G. Driggs

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2010, 09:17:47 AM »

  I know Jesus isn't telling us to go and try to keep the ten commandments as Paul dealt with this in various scriptures but what exactly is Jesus saying about doing and teaching the law?  Any insights?


Hi Doug, dont know if this excerpt will help, but just in case I will post it. Good refresher either way. :)

From 'The Sermon On The Mount is for You'

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm


We need to really understand and know as Paul did when he said: "For we KNOW that THE LAW IS SPIRITUAL..."  (Rom. 7:14). And just how did Paul "know"  this? Because of the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments which were the main part of the Law of Moses, and the Old Covenant (Deut. 4:13).  "...Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law  [what law?]: for I had not known lust, except the law  [which law?] had said, 'THOU SHALT NOT COVET'"  (Rom. 7:7). Oh THAT law. That would be the 10th commandment of the Ten Commandments (Ex. 20:17).

Of course I have said and have written for many years now that the Ten Commandments of God are spiritual. And I have explained that it is this 10th commandment that is the absolute proof. The 7th commandment already said to not commit adultery, and the 8th commandment already said to not steal, but then the last and 10th commandment says in effect, "...and don't even THINK about it!"

Isn't this exactly what Jesus is teaching when He says that the commandment said to not commit adultery, be He then said we are not to even THINK ABOUT lusting after another woman with impure sexual thoughts?

This whole Sermon on the Mount is Christ's teaching on how to live an exceedingly higher level of morality and righteousness than was taught before, and the accompanying Judgments if one does not live up to these standards.

Paul taught:

    "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Gal. 3:24-25).

The law was like elementary school, whereas living by faith in Christ is more like high school or college.

Is not elementary school necessary before high school? Most elementary students cannot do high school or college work. Do high school and college teachers contradict the math, grammar, and science that was learned in elementary school. No, of course not, and so neither does Jesus CONTRADICT the lessons of the Law of Moses which brought us to Him. We never contradict 2 + 2 = 4 when we get to high school, but we do move onto higher math and do not continue re-laying the foundation of these subjects already established back in elementary school.

We will now turn to the Sermon on the Mount and see if we are able to learn a little "new [spiritual] math."

Lets be clear on one thing before we enter this study. You will find the phrase, New Covenant, New Testament, and New Commandment in the Greek Scriptures, But you will not find the phrase "New LAW" anywhere. There are "new commandments" regarding that law, the but law is the same, as it is "spiritual" and therefore is not "temporal" (II Cor. 4:18).

And let me make this perfectly clear. In the Old Covenant Law, we read this:

    "...you shall love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18 & Matt. 5:43, 19:19, 22:39, etc.)

The apostle John informs us that this commandment is not new:

    "And now I beseech you, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto you, but that which we had from the beginning, that we should love one another" (II John 1:5).

But John also knew that Jesus did add something to this commandment:

    "And this is HIS commandment, that we should believe on the Name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, AS He gave us commandment" (I John 3:23).

Well was there something different about this commandment from the Old Covenant Law and "AS" Jesus commanded it? Yes there was. A new Law? No. A contradictory Law? No. Well what then was different from the way Jesus taught and kept this commandment to "love your neighbor?"

Here it is, simply and profoundly: "A NEW commandment I give unto you, That you love one another [same as the Old Commandment, right? No, here is were the new "AS" part comes in...] ...That you love one another AS I HAVE LOVED YOU, that you also love one another" (John 13:34). Now that brings a whole lot more meaning to the "old" commandment which they had from the beginning. Loving "AS" Jesus loved, is a whole new ball game, as they say.

There was and is nothing wrong with the Law of Moses. God calls it "MY law."

The problem was never with the Law, but with the people:

    "O that there were such an HEART in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always..." (Deut. 5:29).

The problem was never with God's Law, but with the peoples' heart-they were carnal, and when one is carnal, he cannot keep a "spiritual" law:

    "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:6-7).

And here is absolutely proof that there needed a change in the Covenant, not in the LAW OF THE COVENANT:

    "For if that first covenant ['covenant,' not law] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For FINDING FAULT WITH THEM, He said, Behold, the days come, says the Lord, when I will make a NEW COVENANT [not a New Law] with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... For this is the covenant that I will make... I will put my LAWS [same old laws-but new covenant] into their MIND, AND WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS..." (Heb. 8:7-9).

There it is!

The New makes alive and ends in "eternal [eonian-immortal] LIFE."

    "Who also has made us able ministers of the NEW Testament; not of the letter, but of the SPIRIT: for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives LIFE" (II Cor. 3:6).

This along with the blood sacrifice of Jesus IS the New Covenant; the Gospel; the Kingdom of God.

The Old letter of the law was glorious, but the newly applied Spirit of the law does "much more exceed in glory" (II Cor. 3:9). The Old Covenant law was how God's people were judged under Moses: the New Covenant law is how God's chosen Elect will be judged under Jesus.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace, G.Driggs
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Amplification on Mt 5:19 - Lawkeeping
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 04:37:03 AM »

Hello Arion

You have some wonderful insights and truths to consider in this thread.

You asked:

Quote
what exactly is Jesus saying about doing and teaching the law?

Obeying the literal law through works of the flesh resting on the approval of man for the gratification of endorsement, support, sanction, agreement and authorization, confirmation, proof or verification -  is death.

The spiritual law that Jesus is referring to is the law of the Spirit that means being, doing and having belief in the faith OF Christ. Christ Himself decides when and how He enables us to live, move and have our being in Him.

Rom 7:6  But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring
.

Arc
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 04:39:00 AM by Arcturus »
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