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Author Topic: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting  (Read 2973 times)

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aqrinc

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Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« on: February 02, 2010, 02:09:45 AM »


With all the questions coming from members, this latest answer from Ray, can be helpful to clear up some basic misunderstandings about differences at BT from being a Church follower. Please note the reason for this is not to ridicule any person or Church group, but to have some healthy discussion, as we get a check-up from the neck-up.

I Highlited 5 of Rays points that stand out as bedrock in most Institutions with some variation.


Dear  :) :) :):  This will have to be short as I am hopelessly behind in answering my emails.
 
"Institution" means something that is usually highly developed with laws and customs approved of by larger segments of a culture or society.  Or any smaller such
institute which follows the teachings and practices of a larger institution.
 
There are tens of thousands of small and very small congregations of "Christians" around the world.  Most all of them, however, follow the pattern and customs of the
larger well established Churches.  If your church follows and practices such laws, customs, and teaching, then you are an institutionalize church of men.
In Christendom, there is not one teaching or doctrine that is completely Scriptural.  Virtually all churches believing in and teach the following unscriptural doctrines:
 
Tithing is Biblical for the New Testament Church.
Sunday is the "Lord's Day" of worship.
Man has an immortal soul.
Death is LIFE at a different location.
Judgment takes place instantly at death, hence all dead people go immediately to heaven or hell at death.
The wicked and unbelieving will suffer eternal torment (in a Christian hell).
Jesus will not save the world even though that is what His Father commissioned Him to do (I John 4:14).
Resurrection is a useless doctrine, seeing that people supposedly go to heaven at death without first being resurrected.
Christmas and Easter are Biblically sanctioned holy days.
God is a Trinity of three different persons.
Prayer changes God's mind.

What Christians are "saved" from is an eternal hell of torture.
Salvation means going to heaven.
God gave mankind "free will/free choice/free moral agency."

Anyone can repent and come to Jesus anytime he chooses.

Speaking in tongues is the sign that one is a truly converted Christian.
It is a virtue to become a soldier and kill our nation's enemies.
The King James Bible is inerrant.

The Apostle's Creed is a true outline of Scriptural truth.

Jesus was wrong when He called His followers a LITTLE flock, seeing that Christianity is the LARGEST flock in the world, and the "many called but few chosen" is now the "many chosen" seeing that there are now two billion Christians in the world.

There are many things that God desires, but will never realize, even though the Scriptures tell us that God will fulfill ALL his pleasure and desires.

According to Genesis chapter one, the heavens and earth are only about 6000 years old.
Noah's flood killed every living thing on earth except those things in the ark.


Etc., etc., etc.
 
If your group teaches and believes the above unscriptural heresies, then they are an "Institutionalized Church" of men.
Let me know how your teachings stack up against what I have presented to you.

God be with you,
Ray.

george :).

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Roy Coates

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2010, 12:04:59 PM »

On my leaving and after being asked by the Senior pastor, i gave a futile attempt to point these things out to him. I even used his own teachings that "If you want to better understand the pastor look to his pastor and his pastor's pastor" after much investigating I showed him if you follow the pastors it eventually leads to teaching that even he disagreed with. I found that he taught all the same things some time with a slight twist to make it look like he had found the truth. I even spent a year in a bible college that he had obtained his Doctorate from. It was awful, I was seeing the hearsay but as surrounded by blind leading the blind. The other thing I pointed out was that even one of his associate pastors was teaching a doctrine "speaking in tongues is the only way to prove you have the Holy Spirit" that the pastor open disagreed with. I said you support this pastor yet you disagree with his teaching, that his hypocrisy. He just didn't see the trouble with such a practice. It didn't matter much anyway, I could see the error in both. I don't begrudge any of them, it is all part of God's plan.
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Arion

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2010, 12:57:23 PM »

The humbling thing is that I used to believe most if not all of those points and I could twist the scripture to support these fallacies and I had no idea that I was believing and teaching error.  I am so thankful for Ray but the fact is that Ray did not teach me these truths.  God opened my spiritual heart and eyes to receive them and the teaching came through Ray.  If God didn't do a work in me then I would have rejected everything I have read here.  I do get angry as I see Christians belittle the truths that we now hold dear but God has changed me so that I'm not angry at the person any more but I'm angry at the blindness.  And just about every time I come across such resistance the spirit witnesses to me that I am no better than they are because I believed the same as they for most of my adult life.  The truths that are shared here certainly can change your whole perception of who God really is and what his nature really is and this knowledge is liberating.  'Who the son sets free is free indeed!!'
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Samson

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2010, 02:39:52 PM »

Yes George,

                 That was a good Email response by Ray. Just believe the opposite of that list of what the Denominations of Christendom believes and you get another review of Basic BT Truths taught at this Site,  ;)

                                Thanks, Samson.
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2010, 03:23:31 PM »

Hello George

It brought to mind other things we have been shown through Ray in LOF part 2.

THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED TONGUE

Most all Christian theologians would claim to believe the first statement of Scriptural Truth that I present below, especially when I cite a Scripture verse with it, but they will then contradict and refuse to teach the second statement of Truth. Here are a few examples:

Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mansí works, but not the man himself? Yes.

But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.

Do they believe that God is the Creator of ALL? Yes.

But do they teach that God created EVIL as He says in (Isa. 45:7)? No.

Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.

But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over manís supposed "free" will? No.

Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.

Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.

But do they teach the truth therefore that menís souls are mortal and not immortal? No.

Do they believe that the original manuscripts of Godís Word were inerrant? Yes.

But do they teach us that the King James translation, which they say is "inerrant" has gone through THOUSANDS of error corrections since 1611? No.

Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.

But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.

Do they believe there are many cults today that need exposing? Yes.

But do they teach that Christendom, by its OWN definitions, is also a cult? No.

Do they believe that Sodom is "suffering the vengeance of eternal [aeonian] fire? Yes.

But do they teach that Sodom will be restored to their former estate (Ezek. 16:55)? No.

Do they believe in a future resurrection of dead people back to life (John 5:29)? Yes.

But do they teach that a resurrection is imperative for dead people to live again? No.

Do they believe the first half of I Cor. 15:22 that "For as in Adam ALL die?" Yes.

But do they teach the last half, "even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive?" No.

Do they believe that "...the end of the world [Gk: aion -- age]" ends in Mat. 24:3? Yes.

But do they teach that this same "aion -- age" in Matt. 25:41 & 46 will also end. No.

Do they believe that Jn 3:13 & Acts 2:34 are truthful Scripture (II Tim. 3:16)? Yes.

But do they teach this truth that "NO man," including David, has gone to heaven? No.

Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.

But do they teach that Godís "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.

Do they believe that Satan lied when he told Eve, "thou shalt not surely die?" Yes.

But do they teach the truth that sinners really do DIE at death as God has stated? No.

Do they believe that the Apocryphal books do not belong in the Bible? Yes.

But do they teach us that the 1611 so-called "inerrant" King James Bible contained fourteen such books, including "Tobit," "Judith," "The idol Bel and the Dragon"? No.

Do they believe that Christ is totally responsibility for our salvation? Yes.

But do they teach that "no man can" come to Christ of himself (John 6:44)? No.

Do they believe that Satan is the greatest sinner of all? Yes.

But do they teach Jn. 8:44 which states that Satan "sinned from the beginning?" No.

Do they believe Christ really died for the sins of the world? Yes.

But do they teach that Jesus Christ was dead when they placed Him in the tomb? No.

Do they believe the many Scriptures that liken death to "sleep?" Yes.

But do they teach that dead people are unconscious, "sleeping" till resurrection? No.

Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.

But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.

Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.

But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.

Do they believe that every tongue in heaven and earth will confess Jesus as LORD? Yes.

But do they teach that the Holy Spirit inspires this sincere voluntary act (I Cor. 12:3)? No.

Do they believe that good and evil are both in the same tree of knowledge? Yes

But do they teach that good and evil both come from the same root source? No.

Do they believe that God absolutely "knows all" (I John 3:20)? Yes.

But do they teach that God knows in advance ALL who will reject Christ? No.

Do they believe that Godís love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8)? Yes.

But do they teach that Godís love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.

Do they believe the apostles spoke in foreign languages in Acts 2:4-11? Yes.

But do they teach that of the hundreds of thousands who claim to speak in tongues today, not one of them can speak in multiple languages which they did not already study? No.

Do they believe that the masses did not understand Christís parables (Mat. 13:13)? Yes.

But do they teach that Christ purposely didnít want them to understand, (Vs. 14-17)? No.

Do they believe the Old Covenant contained the Ten Commandments (Deut.4:12)? Yes.

But do they teach a New Covenant which contains a much higher law (Heb. 8:8-9)? No.

Do they believe that God created all the spirits and messengers of heaven? Yes.

But do they teach that God also created Satan who was always His adversary? No.

Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.

But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.

There seems to be no end to the Scriptural contradictions of Christian beliefs. But we can learn from their mistakes. It is good for us that God makes us dig deep for the precious gems of His word. It really is like searching for hidden treasure. And I have never found a hidden treasure in Godís Word that has disappointed me. Each new discovery brings more appreciation for God and His plan of salvation for all.

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 04:42:59 PM by Arcturus »
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moshe

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2010, 06:17:53 AM »


"Institution" means something that is usually highly developed with laws and customs approved of by larger segments of a culture or society.  Or any smaller such
institute which follows the teachings and practices of a larger institution.



Just wondering if American Civil Religion can be part of Christendom [?] since it;

''follow the pattern and customs of the larger well established Churches.''

These would make Christendom even bigger to my perception. 

Also It seems like if institutionalized church buildings (as brands) are adopting the ''new'' marketing techniques of the corporations, but the truths is that Christendom has been using much of these techniques since long before. Most church buildings are greedy business that requires tithe's (and a good amount of deceptive advertising) to keep their institutions alive, many of them also make researches (for their benefit) and respect the norm: 'the majorities people desires are in charge'. All of them play with people emotions and are customer centered.
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kenny

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 01:14:50 PM »

George i am not seeing any peoples truly following Christ,



Mat 5:24  Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
 Mat 5:41  And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
 Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 8:4  And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mat 8:9  For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:13  And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.
Mat 9:6  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
Mat 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Mat 10:5  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6  But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7  And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 10:11  And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
Mat 11:4  Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
Mat 14:29  And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
Mat 17:27  Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Mat 19:21  Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mat 22:9  Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
Mat 25:6  And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 28:10  Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mar 1:38  And he said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also: for therefore came I forth.
Mar 1:44  And saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing those things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
Mar 2:11  I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.
Mar 5:19  Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.
Mar 5:34  And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
Mar 10:21  Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
Mar 10:52  And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Luk 5:24  But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.
Luk 9:5  And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.
Luk 9:59  And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60  Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:61  And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luk 10:3  Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
Luk 10:7  And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
Luk 15:4  What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
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aqrinc

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 03:55:43 PM »


Moises, Kenny,

We would do well to look after our own house, as Ray points out, Light and Salt do not make noise. Humility is the end game for this life of evil we are living, read Ecc:1:13. The entire chapter of Ecc:1 is also a great read for some perspective on what is different from before, or not.

Makes These Scripture stand out, doesn't it:


Luk 18: 5-17 (CEV)
5  I will help this widow because she keeps on bothering me. If I don't help her, she will wear me out."
6  The Lord said: Think about what that crooked judge said.

7  Won't God protect his chosen ones who pray to him day and night? Won't he be concerned for them?

He will surely hurry and help them. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find on this earth anyone with faith?

Jesus told a story to some people who thought they were better than others and who looked down on everyone else:
10  Two men went into the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11  The Pharisee stood over by himself and prayed, "God, I thank you that I am not greedy, dishonest, and unfaithful in marriage like other people. And I am really glad that I am not like that tax collector over there.
12  I go without eating for two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all I earn."

13  The tax collector stood off at a distance and did not think he was good enough even to look up toward heaven. He was so sorry for what he had done that he pounded his chest and prayed, "God, have pity on me! I am such a sinner."

14  Then Jesus said, "When the two men went home, it was the tax collector and not the Pharisee who was pleasing to God. If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored."

15  Some people brought their little children for Jesus to bless. But when his disciples saw them doing this, they told the people to stop bothering him.
16  So Jesus called the children over to him and said, "Let the children come to me! Don't try to stop them. People who are like these children belong to God's kingdom.
17  You will never get into God's kingdom unless you enter it like a child!"

george :).

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bambam

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2010, 04:27:49 PM »

Again, God reveals himself to me.  And you all have been part of that.  I have been so discouraged about going to this church I am in where my hubby is a pastor.  Doubts can creep in when you are surrounded by false teaching.  It is NO accident that this topic of institutional church and the truths of God has come up again.  It has brought a renewed sense of truth to my mind, and has strengthened my emotions and resolve.  God is working things out.  I so needed to read this and other threads that have come up concerning church institutions and the law.  Thank you , thank you!!!!! :D  God be with you all!!!  He is!
Beth
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kenny

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2010, 05:02:33 PM »


Moises, Kenny,

We would do well to look after our own house, as Ray points out, Light and Salt do not make noise. Humility is the end game for this life of evil we are living, read Ecc:1:13. The entire chapter of Ecc:1 is also a great read for some perspective on what is different from before, or not.

Makes These Scripture stand out, doesn't it:


yes my friend it does
Kenny

Luk 18: 5-17 (CEV)
5  I will help this widow because she keeps on bothering me. If I don't help her, she will wear me out."
6  The Lord said: Think about what that crooked judge said.

7  Won't God protect his chosen ones who pray to him day and night? Won't he be concerned for them?

He will surely hurry and help them. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find on this earth anyone with faith?

Jesus told a story to some people who thought they were better than others and who looked down on everyone else:
10  Two men went into the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.

11  The Pharisee stood over by himself and prayed, "God, I thank you that I am not greedy, dishonest, and unfaithful in marriage like other people. And I am really glad that I am not like that tax collector over there.
12  I go without eating for two days a week, and I give you one tenth of all I earn."

13  The tax collector stood off at a distance and did not think he was good enough even to look up toward heaven. He was so sorry for what he had done that he pounded his chest and prayed, "God, have pity on me! I am such a sinner."

14  Then Jesus said, "When the two men went home, it was the tax collector and not the Pharisee who was pleasing to God. If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself, you will be honored."

15  Some people brought their little children for Jesus to bless. But when his disciples saw them doing this, they told the people to stop bothering him.
16  So Jesus called the children over to him and said, "Let the children come to me! Don't try to stop them. People who are like these children belong to God's kingdom.
17  You will never get into God's kingdom unless you enter it like a child!"

george :).


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G. Driggs

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2010, 07:54:27 PM »

It has brought a renewed sense of truth to my mind, and has strengthened my emotions and resolve.  God is working things out.  

That is good news Beth! Yes God is working things out, and you dont even have to say a word to anyone! I saw these Scriptures today and you were the first person I though about.

1Pe 3:1-4  Wives, in the same way, submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, even if some disobey the Christian message, they may be won over without a message by the way their wives live, when they observe your pure, reverent lives. Your beauty should not consist of outward things like elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold ornaments or fine clothes;  instead, it should consist of the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very valuable in God's eyes.

I think this applies to anyone in God's family, because I used to think I HAD to teach and "spread the word". Not all are teachers, we all have something to offer, different body parts doing different things, all for His glory.

Anyway I hope this further encourages you as it has me. :)




We would do well to look after our own house, as Ray points out, Light and Salt do not make noise. Humility is the end game for this life of evil we are living, read Ecc:1:13. The entire chapter of Ecc:1 is also a great read for some perspective on what is different from before, or not.



I totally agree George, as I've had to learn this the hard way lately. Being given an experience of evil really does humble one.

Peace, G.Driggs.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2010, 08:05:10 PM by G. Driggs »
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moshe

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 01:48:54 AM »


"Institution" means something that is usually highly developed with laws and customs approved of by larger segments of a culture or society.  Or any smaller such
institute which follows the teachings and practices of a larger institution.



Just wondering if American Civil Religion can be part of Christendom [?] since it;

''follow the pattern and customs of the larger well established Churches.''

These would make Christendom even bigger to my perception. 





I just had these question adove...
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Kat

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2010, 11:09:34 AM »


Hi Moises,

Yes of course, this term is actually the over view of religion/Babylon in America.

 Americans embrace a common "civil religion" with certain fundamental beliefs, values, holidays, and rituals, parallel to, or independent of, their chosen religion.[2] This belief system has historically been used to attack nonconformist and liberal ideas and groups. (From Wikipedia)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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aqrinc

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Re: Institution or Christ Followers Meeting
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2010, 12:34:02 PM »


Hi Moises,

No need for any apology or explanation. It is always good to remember where one has been, wisdom, is knowing that it was wrong, and turning away from the bad past (that Wisdom comes From GOD). None of us took ourselves out from Babylon, The FATHER Dragged us out By HIS own Power. Since we are all bought with a Great Price (CHRIST Jesus), what can any of us boast about.

As our Master Has Already Said:


Joh 8:7  But as they continued to ask Him, He lifted Himself up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.

Joh 8:10  And bending back up, and seeing no one but the woman, Jesus said to her, Woman, where are the ones who accused you? Did not one give judgment against you?

Joh 8:11  And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said to her, Neither do I give judgment. Go, and sin no more.

george :).

 
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