Meaning Of Theos

[Samson]

Timely Email,

                  On a previous Thread that was locked for obvious reasons(Did God The Father have a Beginning), one of our Brothers from the Forum, namely Darren asked this question of Ray and the answer regarding God having or not having a beginning is answered quite nicely and is supported by the meaning of the Greek word Theos which means "Placer" and "Disposer." He(God) can't be a Placer of something if He had a beginning. Prior to learning anything about Universalism and my subsequent discovery of this Site, I never knew that "Theos" meant Disposer or Placer and it was a very important and enlightening discovery for me. I always knew that Theos didn't have to necessarily refer to Jesus or God The Father, as the Scriptures state that there are "many gods and many lords" and that human judges can be and are called "gods." (1Cor. 8:5 & John. 10:34,35). God is Spirit and God wasn't a Father until He begat Jesus. Anyway thanks to Darren for asking the question and for Ray's timely response. This Email was just Posted and is presented below in blue for all to review and comment on.

  A Beginning
« on: Today at 08:52:49 AM » 

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Greentings Ray. frist of all I must tell you that we at BT are praying for you everyday. You are never far from our hearts. You have touched so many of us in so many ways. Thank you for your courage and your teachings. Now for my question and I will keep it very short. But Iyou are the only one I can trust with an ansewer .  Here's my question and someone at BT brought this to my intention. Did God our Father have a beginning?? It's a question that I have never thought of before. The man made doctrin (churches)  teach that God always exsited. I know and you teach that if the church teaches it it probable false. I will leave it there. I know you must be tired. You have alot on your plate. We all will keep praying for you and your family.

                                           Thank you,

                                              Darren


Dear Darren:  Thank you for your concern over my health (or lack thereof).

Your question may be "short," but it is not specific.  I realize how difficult
for most to "pay close attention to all the words."

You ask whether "God our Father" had a beginning?  You then suggest that the churches teach that
"God always existed."  Which is your question?  Did "God the FATHER" have a beginning or did 'GOD"
have a beginning.  See the difference?  We must make a distinction, as there is a distinction.

The phrase "God the Father" is nowhere found in the O.T. Hebrew Scriptures, only in the N.T. Greek (Ex:  John 6:27).
"GOD" (Who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ) has always existed and did not have a beginning.
However, God as a "FATHER," did have a beginning.  One cannot be a father unless He is a "parent," for that
is one of the main definitions of a "father" in the Greek language.  God has conceived a Son, and from that
time He became a FATHER with a Child--the beginning of His FAMILY.

God means "placer or disposer."  God is not a "placEE" or a "disposEE."  God the PlacER was never placED

So:  "GOD" as the original supreme Being of the universe did not have a beginning.
But God "THE FATHER" of our Lord Jesus Christ did not become the "FATHER" until He became the Father
and Spiritual Parent of Jesus Christ.  Hope this helps clear up your discussion.
God be with you,
Ray

 



                                Kind Regards, Samson.

[OBrenda]

Thanks for sharing that, enjoyed it.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Samson

The person who brought this "question" – challenge, asking if there was any Scriptural proof,  into the Forum, brought this discussion into the PM lines, not only with me, but I have reason to believe other/s too. The arduous exercise of addressing the  concerns that Scripture does/doesn't  prove God had no beginning, went unhindered for five consecutive days when finally, and I am sad to say, not on the Godly merit of His Word in scriptural evidence, but by scientific observation, it was reckoned that God indeed, does not have a beginning. I felt that this was a real let down, shabby end to a sharp, intelligent and astutely contested enquiry after the truth.

I learnt from experience, that Faith cannot be proved but it can be rigorously contested.   Certainly my faith was tested and I felt despondent that the conclusion to the duel of questions was to let the intensity of inquiry, go away  empty handed but for scientific evidence. I was not happy.

Then as Ray showed that there right in the word GOD, is the answer! Five days of my  long line of answering questions that did little but to thoroughly test my own faith and endurance, were elegantly and decisively trumped by Ray Smith with his stylishly neat and concise reply that paid due attention and regard for the Word of God!

By experience I see where I went wrong and that has been a great learning experience that has been  indelibly personal and of great advantage to me. I hope not to forget!

We are practicing to apply and learning to comprehend, what we have so richly been blessed to receive in Truth and in Application, in the meantime. We have a two fold task that is not simply one of agreeing with what we read, but applying the truths we are given. It is not easy either.  

Arc

[Samson]

Hello Samson

The person who brought this "question" – challenge, asking if there was any Scriptural proof,  into the Forum, brought this discussion into the PM lines, not only with me, but I have reason to believe other/s too. The arduous exercise of addressing the  concerns that Scripture does/doesn't  prove God had no beginning, went unhindered for five consecutive days when finally, and I am sad to say, not on the Godly merit of His Word in scriptural evidence, but by scientific observation, it was reckoned that God indeed, does not have a beginning. I felt that this was a real let down, shabby end to a sharp, intelligent and astutely contested enquiry after the truth.

I learnt from experience, that Faith cannot be proved but it can be rigorously contested.   Certainly my faith was tested and I felt despondent that the conclusion to the duel of questions was to let the intensity of inquiry, go away  empty handed but for scientific evidence. I was not happy.

Then as Ray showed that there right in the word GOD, is the answer! Five days of my  long line of answering questions that did little but to thoroughly test my own faith and endurance, were elegantly and decisively trumped by Ray Smith with his stylishly neat and concise reply that paid due attention and regard for the Word of God!

By experience I see where I went wrong and that has been a great learning experience that has been  indelibly personal and of great advantage to me. I hope not to forget!

We are practicing to apply and learning to comprehend, what we have so richly been blessed to receive in Truth and in Application, in the meantime. We have a two fold task that is not simply one of agreeing with what we read, but applying the truths we are given. It is not easy either.  

Arc

Hi Deb,

           I received one Pm inquiry from the individual in question regarding this Topic( did God the Father have a beginning), but decided not to respond, because it just seemed like it would lead to senseless debates and a waste of time for both the inquirer and for me. Besides, I thought there was already adequate support for our position and Marques spent ample time in discussing this Topic with the PM option, too. Of course, prior to Ray's Email response, I never considered that God as a Father had a beginning when he begat Jesus, so much for me paying attention to the words,  .

                                  Kind Regards, Samson.

[ARisingSon]

Samson,
    Regarding Ray's response to Warren, if God (El Elyon?) did not become THE FATHER till Mary conceived Jesus Christ wouldn't that mean there was no Son till then?  And if that be true, who were Elohim, El Shaddai and Yahweh in the Old Testament?  Grace be with you.  Earl

[Roy Coates]

arisingson,
I didn't see where Ray mentioned Mary in his email response. Also Ray has taught on Jesus' beginning and I cant remember if that is how it was worded or not. Nor can I find the link to the teaching. I remember something about Jesus being birthed out of wisdom. Jesus was long before Mary. Sorry I cannot be any more help at this time but I will look it up or another member may post it.

[mharrell08]

Samson,
    Regarding Ray's response to Warren, if God (El Elyon?) did not become THE FATHER till Mary conceived Jesus Christ wouldn't that mean there was no Son till then?  And if that be true, who were Elohim, El Shaddai and Yahweh in the Old Testament?  Grace be with you.  Earl

Hello Earl,

It might be a good idea to simply email Ray and ask for further clarification. Though Jesus may not have been a 'Son' until He was conceived, He nonetheless was/is/will be I AM and through Whom came all creation.

1 Cor 8:6  ...to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6  One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

'Elohim, El Shaddai, and Yahweh' simply refer to God/Creator/Placer/etc...it is not a formal name but rather a title.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[G. Driggs]

Samson,
    Regarding Ray's response to Warren, if God (El Elyon?) did not become THE FATHER till Mary conceived Jesus Christ wouldn't that mean there was no Son till then?  And if that be true, who were Elohim, El Shaddai and Yahweh in the Old Testament?  Grace be with you.  Earl

Hi Earl, after reading and re-reading Ray's response to Darren, I do not see where he (Ray) said anything about Mary. But I do know where Ray has said when Jesus was conceived.

Excerpt from Nashville Conference 2008 - audio #7, 8a, 8b, 9 and 10
@ http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8385.0.html


Jesus said "I came out from Thee."   Where did Jesus come from?  Did He come out of the Virgin Mary, is that where Jesus really came from?  No.  I mean I know that people believe that is where Jesus came from, out of the Virgin Mary.  He did, but He was before that.  Jesus plainly says "I came out from Thee," the Father.  He came out of the Father and He was before He became the Messiah.  He was sent to be the Messiah from back in the Old Testament times.

It plainly says He was conceived of or by the Holy Spirit of God the Father.  We're in John 17:8, back up a couple verses and Christ says,

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me with Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was.

He was glorified in His Father before there was a world, it says so.  In Philippians it said He was made.

Php 2:7  But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

It means emptied.  He emptied Himself of His divinity and became in the form of man.  That isn't where He came from, He didn't originate in a human baby.  He emptied Himself into a little baby to become in the form of a man.
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Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

[Roy Coates]

well done G. Driggs that was the lesson I was looking for.

[Samson]

Samson,
    Regarding Ray's response to Warren, if God (El Elyon?) did not become THE FATHER till Mary conceived Jesus Christ wouldn't that mean there was no Son till then?  And if that be true, who were Elohim, El Shaddai and Yahweh in the Old Testament?  Grace be with you.  Earl

Hi Earl,

           I wasn't insinuating that God The Father became a Father when Mary gave birth to Jesus, but when Jesus as The Word in his PreHuman Existence was Begotten of the Father(John. 1:18; John. 1:1; Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15; Phil. 2:9-11; John. 1:14). Sorry for the confusion.


                               Kind Regards, Samson.

[G. Driggs]

Hi Samson, I thought you were quite clear in your post, and I never knew God meant "Placer" and "Disposer" until this email. Its like His (God) title pretty much gives it away doesn't it? Reminds me of a couple verses.

Exo 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isa 46:9 Remember the first things from the eon, for I am the El, and there is no further Elohim, and the limit is as Me.

Thank you for the post Samson.

Peace, G.Driggs

[Samson]

Hi Samson, I thought you were quite clear in your post, and I never knew God meant "Placer" and "Disposer" until this email. Its like His (God) title pretty much gives it away doesn't it? Reminds me of a couple verses.

Exo 20:3  Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Isa 46:9 Remember the first things from the eon, for I am the El, and there is no further Elohim, and the limit is as Me.

Thank you for the post Samson.

Peace, G.Driggs

And Thank you George,

                                 Thanks for sharing those Scriptures, the one you quoted at Isaiah 46:9 helps with this Topic quite nicely, got to take a break from shoveling this time consuming Snow, so I can get to studying and reviewing the Scriptures more often again, shame on me for being so Spiritually lazy of late.

                                          Thanks, Samson.

[ARisingSon]

Thanks Everyone.  That helps.  After I posted I came upon the Nashville '07 Conference notes and am finding much there to help me. I'm way behind in reading all of Ray's info.    So, how did God beget a Son without a counterpart(woman/wife)?  Does Ray get into that? Grace be with you.   Earl

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Earl

Ray does mention that the female aspect of God is of God. 

Maybe someone will come by and repeat the paper where  Ray mentions that out of Adam, God took his rib....and made Eve. There is more to that rib than meets the eye.

With God, all things are possible!

Arc

[ARisingSon]

Thanks Arc.
     Probably my questions are answered some where in Ray's writings but there's so much of it.  I appreciate everyones help in pointing me to specific portions of his writings to help me. That speeds up the process. Grace be with you.   Earl

[ARisingSon]

Samson,
  Back to the original theme of this thread. In Ray's response to Darren he stated,"God means "placer or disposer."" Where does he get that definition of THEOS?  My Strong's has theos as number G2316,theos,; of uncert. affin.; a deity, espec.(with 3588) the supreme Divinity; fig. a magistrate; by Heb. very:-X exceeding, God, god(-ly,-ward).     
            Grace be with you.  Earl

[Samson]

Samson,
 Back to the original theme of this thread. In Ray's response to Darren he stated,"God means "placer or disposer."" Where does he get that definition of THEOS?  My Strong's has theos as number G2316,theos,; of uncert. affin.; a deity, espec.(with 3588) the supreme Divinity; fig. a magistrate; by Heb. very:-X exceeding, God, god(-ly,-ward).    
           Grace be with you.  Earl

Earl,

     I didn't learn that Theos, Greek for God was Placer, Disposer or Arbiter from Ray, but learned it from some Universalist writings from Author(s) of the 18th-19th Centuries, but I don't recall specifically who, might be John Wesley Hanson, Andrew Jukes, Thomas Allin. I learned it prior to discovering Ray's Site, eventually realizing Ray taught that too, regarding the primary definition of Theos. The whole point of Theos, is that this word doesn't necessarily have to refer to God the Father or Jesus as God either, it's somewhat an abstract term, Human Judges can be referred to as "gods." Also, regarding Strongs Hebrew & Greek Bible Dictionary, I have one too, got it from Barnes and Nobles on sale about a year ago,but wouldn't put all my apples in his definitions, because although he will list most of the definitions of a certain Greek Word, he's biased by Orthodox Christianities belief system. As an example he says Aionios means "pertaining to the Ages" and Aion means " An Age," he has these derivatives of "Aion" meaning perpetual and endless time or quality of life. How can a word be defined with an opposite meaning. Either Aionios means Endless or it has a beginning and an ending. I don't put my trust in Orthodox Scholars, Theologians because they are motivated by an agenda to be in agreement with what's Politically correct and acceptable among their Peer Group or they get ostracized like Jesus was, because of " not going with the program." After shoveling snow for another 10 million hours, if I can find the time, I will see where I first learned these definitions of Theos(Arbiter, Placer and Disposer).

                      Have a good day, Earl.

[ARisingSon]

Thanks. If you find your source I would like to know.    Grace be with you.  Earl

[bpenelli]

I don't know if this is helpful or not but see the last sentence in "EL" and "ELOHIM" here:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/names.html

also see:
http://www.concordant.org/expohtml/GodAndChrist/onegod4.html

[Samson]

Thanks. If you find your source I would like to know.    Grace be with you.  Earl

Earl,

From God's Truth For Today, The Main Library is where I came across Universalist writings prior to my discovering Bible-Truths, Below you will find some excerpts from an article by James Coram. This Library has Authors in Alphabetical order. Also, A.E. Knoch, the translator of the Concordant Literal Version has some articles discussing the meaning of Theos.

 The shortest form of the divine title, El, which is singular, is the same in form as the connective to and the pronoun these. To and these indicate the direction, disposition, or subjection of that which is in view. For example, "The water from under the heavens shall flow together to one place" (Gen.1:9), disposes or subjects the waters. "These are the genealogical annals" (Gen.2:4), places the generations before the mind of the reader. This is the underlying thought in accord with the true proverb, "Man proposes, but God disposes."[5]  It would seem, then, that the essential thought of the divine title (which appears in three forms, El, Eloah, and Elohim) is Subjector, Disposer, or Placer

We may be certain that this assumption is correct since the Greek equivalent Theos, which is derived from the-PLACE, signifies the Placer. This may be confirmed from many words which share this common stem such as tithêmi, place, lay, appoint, assign, or atheteo, which means "repudiate" or have no place for. The meaning of the- may be seen as well in such English words as theme, thesis, and theater, in which a certain entity (whether a topic, proposition, or drama) is placed before an audience.

It is certain that Galatians 4:8 should be understood in such a sense as is suggested here, for there are a considerable number of scripture passages which speak of both men and messengers as being "elohim" (i.e., "subjectors"), each one, under God, working in his own faithful capacity toward the achievement of his own respective service. Note the following texts: "You shall not maledict the elohim [i.e., the arbiters or judges; cf Ex.21:6], and a prince among your people you shall not curse" (Ex.22:28). "Then the sheiks of Edom are flustered; the arbiters [elohim; i.e., judges, or disposers] of Moab, quivering took hold of them. All the dwellers of Canaan are dissolved" (Ex.15:15).

The word "God" (or "god"), like all titles, concerns itself with office or service. In Greek, its stem, the- signifies PLACE; hence, the complete form, theos (GOD), means PLACer. This idea fits all the contexts in which theos is used. Theos is not only the original Greek word for the English " GOD," but is also the inspired translation of the Hebrew " ELOHIM," in all corresponding New Testament citations of Old Testament texts which refer to God Himself.

                                      Thanks, Samson

Modified on Feb. 16th with excerpts from Ray's Material(See Below in Red)

From: Is God a Trinity or an expanding family.

[The Hebrew word Elohim [eloheem] is the plural form of Elowahh [eloah] which answers to "The Deity." The Greek word generally used in the New Testament for God which answers to the Hebrew word Elohim is Theos which means PLACER (God), literally Disposer or Arbiter

/Okay, here it is--you're going to love this: If the holy ghost is actually and literally "God" as Trinitarians maintain, and Jesus was "CONCEIVED" by the Holy Ghost, then Jesus would have to be "The Son of the Holy Ghost" and not the Son of God the Father! It is not physiologically or Scriptural possible to be "conceived" by one person and then when born, be the son of another person! Whoever causes a women to conceive is also the FATHER of the child conceived, NOT ANOTHER AND DIFFERENT PERSON! Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit "OF" God. It was the spirit OF the Father, not some other spirit or ghost that caused Mary to conceive. Therefore "God," not the "spirit of God," is the FATHER of Jesus. So much for the trinity theorycolor]

Jesus IS God! True, but this fact does NOT make Him the FATHER! Let us always read and believe the Scriptures. The English word "God" is translated from the Greek word Theos which means PLACER or DISPOSER. ANYONE to whom the Father gives such an office of "placer or disposer" is a God! Notice what God says in Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."

Jesus explains this verse for us:

"Jesus answered them, 'Is it not written in your law, that 'I say you are gods'? If He said those were gods, to whom the word of God came [and the scripture can not be annulled], are you saying to Him Whom the Father hallows and dispatches into the world that You are blaspheming,' seeing that I said, 'Son of God am I'? If I am not doing My Father's works, do not believe Me. Yet if I am doing them, and if ever you are not believing Me, be believing the works, that you may be knowing and believing that in Me is the Father, and I am in the Father."

Okay then, let's notice a few very important points. Jesus never came out and said "I AM GOD!" He always called Himself, "The Son OF God." Recall that Jesus did not consider it "pillaging" to be equal with God. That is, he didn't need to steal, or take His office by FORCE, because His God, the Father, GAVE ALL THINGS TO HIM FREELY! Though Jesus is certainly "God," we must always remember that everything that made Him "God" (like His Father), WAS GIVEN TO HIM! Is there anyone who would suggest that someone GAVE God the Father all that He possesses? I think not. There is clearly a distinction--we have a "Father" and a "Son," NOT two equal Gods of a so-called trinity.

Notice in the paragraphs copied and pasted above from Ray's Article refuting the Trinity, he mentions the definition of Theos in the first paragraph and in the third one. Also, I threw in alittle information regarding His conception by The Spirit OF God.

I am now done responding to this Thread, this is my last Post on this issue, anyone have any more side questions, You will have to ask someone else or Do the STUDY,RESEARCH and WORK yourself.

                         No offense intended, Regards, Samson.

           P.S. Some of these excerpts from Ray above were accidentally pasted in Black by me.