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Free Will

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Believer:
Good Day Everyone  :D

A year ago I came upon Ray's teachings and it has been amazing! Still is  :) I was a christian and I never had a day of peace in my life. There was days that I hated God for being cruel and I never understood why bad things happened in my life and why I had to go through certain phases.
I was so scared of God and it felt to me that I was being forced to love Him, because if I didn't I would go to hell...
Now for the first time in my life, I actually love God! Like in, TRUELY LOVE GOD  ;D I understand His plan now and it is actually soooooo logical. The moment I understood it, was the moment I asked myself how I could never see it! It's just amazing  :o

Well, I just wanted to declare myself a true believer of the Amazing God of the universe and EVERYTHING in it.

I just needed to know... maybe there is someone that can help me. There is just one point I can't grasp properly. Maybe I missed something Ray wrote and it made me a little confused. It's about free will.

I see the whole point that we don't have free will. I believe it. But sometimes I panick like when I have to make a choice. It feels to me that I'm doing it... and then I feel bad. I know I'm being silly. I mean, our choices was already decided from the beginning.
And then there's also one thing I try to understand. If we aren't responsible for anything, how can we be accountable? I mean, if we don't have free will, how can we be accountable?

Please help me with this. I lie awake some nights to figure this out to understand how that works. It really bothers me...
For example... if it was decided for me that I will be, say for instance, a drug addict... is it then possible to NOT be one? and if it is not, then how can I be accountable? How does that work?

I think I still have a long way to go with the new truth in my heart, but so far, these are the only points that I struggle with. I don't like to struggle with it, because I feel it is crucial especially there to fully understand.

Please help me. Anyone who understand completely. If no one can help me, is there an email address where I can contact Ray?(If I'm allowed off course).  :D

Thank you!

Yours sincerely.

Believer
 

mharrell08:
Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email4.htm#account):

Dear Vince:

Thank you for your email and question.

There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.

People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins.   They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy.  The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF.  God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering.  Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.

We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS.  Think of sin as DIRT.  It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.

Sincerely,

Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility):

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray


Excerpt from 'Letter 2 to Dr. James Kennedy (http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm):

RESPONSIBILITY

Not only are all the billions of heathens who never heard the gospel not responsible for their own salvation, but neither are we responsible for our salvation either. Nowhere in the Scriptures does God hold man responsible for anything. This is just another man-made doctrine that clashes with the Scriptures.

We can use the word "responsible" in a relative sense, such as: "It is a man's responsibility to provide for his family." We all know what the word means. But even if this man doesn't provide for his family, God will hold him accountable not responsible.

The problem with your sermon, Dr. Kennedy, is that you want to present God as a "fair" God. You know most men have lived and died never knowing God or even hearing His Name, so you try to relieve God of His responsibility for His creatures. You know that there is "no other name under Heaven by which man must be saved." You do know that, don't you? I'm betting that you do.

But God doesn't need to be relieved of His responsibility.

Knowing that billions of heathens have lived and died, never hearing that Name or knowing the true God, (and since you have all these man-made doctrines that clash with the Word of God), you try to "get God off the hook." And so you place the burden of responsibility for being saved on man's shoulders. God is not "on the hook." He doesn't need your help, my help, a missionary's help, or anybody else's help to save His children. God does use teachers, pastors, etc. to acquaint people with His Word. But this is a privilege for us, not a necessity for God. Remember the Scripture, that God can "raise up stones" if needed. The Scriptures tell us that all men everywhere are accountable to God, not responsible:

"For the word of God is living and operative, and keen above any two-edged sword, and penetrating up to the parting of soul and spirit both of the articulations and marrow, and is a judge of the sentiments and thoughts of the heart. And there is not a creature which is not apparent in its sight. Now all is naked and bare to the eyes of Him to Whom [God] we are accountable" (Heb. 4:12-13).

Even the King James Version, with its thousands of discrepancies, does not even once in its fifteen hundred pages, use the word "responsible" or "responsibility."

Yet churches evolve whole doctrines around this word "responsibility." Things like: "you're responsible for going to hell" or "it's your responsibility to accept Christ" or "the age of responsibility" or "everyone is responsible for his or her deeds." Strange to make so big a deal of a word that does not even appear in Scripture.

When a minor (a child) commits a crime, even the unjust courts of our land do not hold him responsible. Is his crime simply overlooked? No. He must give an account for his actions. He is accountable. He might be the victim of a broken home, with a drunkard father, a prostitute mother, drug-hooked sisters, and gang-member brothers. Thus, he is not considered responsible. Nonetheless, he is still accountable.

"Now I am saying to you that, for every idle declaration which men shall be speaking they shall be rendering an account concerning it in the day of judging" (Matt. 12:36).

"For all of us shall be presented at the dais of God ... Consequently then, each of us shall be giving account concerning himself to God" (Rom. 14:11-12).

Read the dozens of scriptures where we are likened not only to "children," but to "little children." God is dealing with mankind as minors. He holds them accountable, but nowhere does God hold man responsible. Show me one Scripture.

The church can only see the relative in God's word. They fail to see that God is behind everything in the "absolute."

" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.


Hope this helps Believer and welcome to the forum. I don't have time to add personal thoughts but I'm sure the other members can help out.


Thanks,

Marques

Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Believer

Welcome to the Forum.  :)


--- Quote ---I panick like when I have to make a choice. It feels to me that I'm doing it... and then I feel bad. I know I'm being silly. I mean, our choices was already decided from the beginning.
--- End quote ---

You need not panic when you make a choice. We all make choices and it is us who are making them. God causes the circumstances where we will act out our preferences.

Choices ARE PREFERENCES that SHOW/PROVE/GIVE EVIDENCE of our Spiritual Condition.

Paul says we should discern for ourselves what our condition is before God. We do this by judging ourselves.
 
1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
1Co 11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Only God can give anyone the experience of seeing themselves as they really are! Only God can give us the endurance to survive the sight of seeing ourselves and the encouragement through repentance to change.   8)

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Arc

Roy Coates:
I have experienced some of the same things you have expressed. You have received some good info in the above responses. I might add to reread the the myth of free will exposed(four parts)http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html  portion of The Lake of Fire series. One thing I have been inspired to do while I lay awake in bed struggling with understanding is to cry out to God and beg for understanding, giving thanks for everything I can think of. Peace

Believer:
Thank you all very much! I appreciate your help  :)
I feel enlightned by especially the emails of Ray that Marques sent me. And like Roy said, I have to reread the Free Will parts of the Lake of Fire series.

Just one more thing that's not going away... God knows our choices beforehand, or do I have that wrong? Does He only have control in the way of the circumstances He brings on? I understand now that WE make the choices ourselves, but wasn't our choices decided a long time ago? And that means to me that we never really had a choice... ??? See what I mean about struggling? lol
I apologize for asking. It's just very important for me to have complete insight.

Believer

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