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Free Will

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G. Driggs:
Hi Believer, welcome to the forums. You ask some good questions, and you have received some good answers already, so here is another good answer from Ray that I hope helps.

Short excerpt from 'The Lake of Fire Series' The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part B

http://www.bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html

LEMONS TO LEMONADE?

Many Christian teachers and theologians like to look at examples such as this one with Joseph and conclude that God merely turns the lemons of Joseph’s brothers into lemonade. That is totally untrue and unscriptural. Was the selling of Joseph into Egypt as a slave (their lemons), that God then used to preserve life (His lemonade)? Is that what took place here? God used their lemons to make His lemonade? Absolutely not.

It was GOD who made these "lemons" in the first place—"GOD DID SEND ME…," and it was also God Who turned those lemons into lemonade, "…TO PRESERVE LIFE" (Gen. 45:5b). Or as Gen. 50:20 states:

    "But as for you, ye thought evil [lemons] against me: but God meant it for good [LEMONADE], to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Joseph and his brothers is a parable for the whole plan of God, to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear:

God made the lemons and God changed the lemons into lemonade.

God is the Potter and we are the clay. God first made the clay in His hands "marred/ruined"—LEMONS, before "…He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it"—LEMONADE (Jer. 18:4).

Therefore, "For as in Adam ALL DIE [the marred, ruined clay—lemons] even so in Christ shall ALL [it’s the same ‘all’ as ‘in Adam’—it’s the SAME CLAY {Adam means ‘clay’}--lemons] BE MADE ALIVE [‘another vessel, as seemed good to the Potter to make it’—LEMONADE]."

It is God Who makes both the lemons and the lemonade. God is in control of His creation from beginning to end:

    "Having made known unto us the mystery of His will [God’s will is still a mystery to the world of Christendom], according to His good pleasure [‘For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure’—Phil. 2:13] which He has purposed in Himself [not in man’s fabled ‘free will’]: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE, ALL things in Christ, both which are IN HEAVEN, and which are ON EARTH [that’s ALL the heavenly host and ALL humanity that has ever lived]; even in Him: In Whom also we have obtained an inheritance [in this age and this lifetime, ahead of the rest which must go through judgment first], being predestined according to the purpose of Him [not by the ‘maybe yes/maybe no’ uncertain shaky possibility of man’s supposed free will] Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WILL" (Eph. 1:9-11).

It is GOD Who does the working of the clay. The clay does not determine its own destiny, that is the POTTER’S job:

    "Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [we, the clay] say to Him that formed it [God, the Potter], Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter power over the clay [and the clay’s powerless imagined ‘free will’], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour [lemonade], and another unto dishonour [lemons]" (Rom. 9:20-21).

If the evil deed of selling Joseph into slavery was the "lemons," then it was GOD who made them lemons. Well doesn’t that then make God the evil One? No, no it doesn’t. Here is why. It all has to do with the intent of the heart.

From the intentions of the heart of Joseph’s brothers, the deed to sell Joseph into slavery down in Egypt was EVIL. But from the intention of the heart of GOD, the deed was one of great benevolence and righteousness! And the Scriptures actually say so in just so many words, when Joseph’s brothers did indeed bow down to him:

    "And his brethren also went and fell down before his face; and they said, Behold, we be thy servants. And Joseph said unto them, Fear not, for am I in the place of God? But as for you, ye thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive" (Gen. 50:18-20).

You won’t find many statements in Scripture more profound than this one. "…you thought EVIL AGAINST ME; but GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD…" This is absolutely not a case of turning the lemons of men into the lemonade of God. It was GOD who made both the lemons and the lemonade. Why was this act a sin and an evil on the part of Joseph’s brothers? Because they "thought EVIL" against Joseph. And why was it NOT a sin or an evil when God takes credit for this act? Because "GOD MEANT IT UNTO GOOD." No, contrary to those who hate God’s ways, God is not evil, nor does He ever sin through all His dealings with evil on behalf of mankind’s good and eternal welfare.

One final point, just in case you didn’t catch it: Nowhere in any of these statements of Scripture do we see God "changing" the original evil of men into something good. No, not at all: for it was God, Himself Who is responsible for both the original act of evil and the final consummation of blessing.

Joseph plainly states that "God meant it unto good." The "it" was the evil act of Joseph’s brothers. God did not change "it" unto good. No, God meant for the "it" to take place—"it" was His doing. But God’s motivation for the "it" was for good and not evil as Joseph’s brothers intended. So God brought about the "it" by the dream that He caused Joseph to have. And it was God’s intention from the very conception of the "it" (the dirty deed) to be used for good!

And this IS how God operates. Not just with Joseph and his brothers, but with all humanity in all ages. "God is no respecter of persons," and "God changes not."
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We still make choices even if they are predestined, we have to experience the choices we make that God causes us to make to know good and evil. Every choice God causes us to make, whether good or evil, is for our ultimate good and benefit. God is responsible for all the choices we make because He really knows what He is doing when He causes us to make them. He actually does have a plan with the evil choices He causes humanity to make. It's very important to experience evil in this age, whether we do the evil or whether the evil is done to us. A "few" are being are being made aware of this now in this age and are being judged now to be corrected of this evil. I'm still being judged and corrected everyday, and when I fall and stumble into sin and I dont understand why I made this or that choice, then I try to remember all is of God and no matter what, He knows whats best, and hopefully, God willing I will repent.

Hope this helps

Peace, G.Driggs

Believer:
Ok, so let me get this straight...
God has already decided what we are going to choose(like everly little and big choice), because He has a plan with it. So basically we don't have a "choice" to choose that way(when God brings on the circumstances for that choice), but we feel it as if we made the choice ourselves, even though we now know that it was predestined? Am I seeing it correctly now? So basically, God already planned the circumstances to lead to that specific choice.
So say for instance, when I have to make a choice, for example, I have to choose between overeating or eating sensible. Must I just close my eyes and make it(what's in my heart and what I want to do or feel like doing) and that choice was the choice that God chose for me in the beginning...? :-\
Is it also possible that God made us the persons we are so that we would make that specific choice?
Like if I use the eating example again: Say that God made me a person to Luuuurrrrvvveee food... so basically my choices about food will be to NOT eat sensible. Meaning also I have a weakness for food.  :P That means I will be overweight for the most of my life and have emotional problems as a result and probably also phycological problems, which will lead to me always going the unsensible way concerning food anyway to "feed my emotional appetite", like when I feel down, I eat, happy, eat, sad, eat, stressed, eat, etc. etc...
So my personality will basically be formed around this "problem", as any spesific problem can lead to certain personality traits...
Could this be true? Could all our choices be a result of our weaknesses and personality traits and the reason why God made us the way we are? And to also take that weakness and change it in due time to make it a strong point when we overcome that problems and then our choices have been predestined by the predestined change in us?

How am I doing?
 :)

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Believer

Please consider this Scripture a few times, then a few more times :D

Php 2:13  For it is God Himself whose power creates within you the desire to do His gracious will and also brings about the accomplishment of the desire.

Okay, now. We can only make one choice at a time. We can have millions of alternatives or options, but can only choose one choice at a time. That one choice, God knows we will choose BEFORE we choose it. Not only that! We can decide to make a choice and NOT be able to make it! God knows that too! :D

It can sound pretty frustrating but Paul also wanted to make choices and was overruled by his flesh. Ultimately God MADE Paul WANT to not sin. Then God made Paul do what pleased Him which was to be executed for his faith in Rome. Only God can make us accomplish what we want to accomplish. Only God can make us not sin. Only God can make us not want to sin.

We have to go through the process of failing miserably, and some more miserably than others, before we can come to realise that all good comes only from God and that means our good choices and their good accomplishments.

So yes, I think you are getting it.

Arc

Dave in Tenn:
I'm very familiar with what you are describing--these tumbling thoughts.  It's good that they tumble. 

This does not come easy.  Don't despair.  You seem to be groping towards the Light just fine.   :)

A bazillion causes have narrowed your choices at any one time to the one He knows you will make.  All of them flow from the Creator--the first Cause.  The Word of God, sound teaching, the Spirit of God working in you--all these things are also causes for choices you are making and will make--whether that be to harden your heart or humble yourself. 

This is, essentially, how the 'salvation of all' happens--one unique stiff-necked individual at a time.   

Ninny:
Dave,
That was beautiful..poetic..very nice..very you :)
Kathy ;)

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